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07-24-2016, 10:10 AM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
It will work fine.

---------- Post added 07-23-16 at 10:47 PM ----------

To add color to this. Formatting in camera is preferred by a lot of people but I honestly put zero stock in it. I agree that formatting a card is worth doing in camera if you can but it's a very low risk activity since that format must by definition be portable and work over many systems - it's simply FAT 32 these days and commonly used. Format it - copy the file and you should not have a bit of problem. After the update is complete you might have her reformat in camera to be sure she can use it for pictures but even that is a bit of overkill.
Absolutely. Given the amount of time it takes to format a card in camera only a "quick" format is being done. All this does is reset index tables and creates the DCIM folder. The first time you use a card straight from the store the DCIM folder will get created even without first formatting the card in camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by UMC Quote
I think we should de-mystify the formatting process: What actually happens, is that the formatting device (whether camera or computer) blanks out the card by writing a completely new set of administrative data, in technical terms called "file system". In the good old times this used to be Microsofts "FAT16", later it became "FAT32" and nowadays it is usually "exFAT".

In any case, the exact details of how the filesystem has to look like are standardized, thus is does not make any difference, whether the card gets formatted by the camera or a PC. The only difference when formatting in the camera is, that the camera would format and automatically create the directory to store the pictures in (plus more directories in some cameras). However, these directories are not required during the firmware upgrade and all cameras that I know will create these directories automatically when inserting the card.
As noted above a "quick" format mere re-set, re-writes the index tables often call File Allocation Tables (FAT). A full format (which people commonly mistakenly call a "low level format") will re-write all the logical file structures on the disk - FAT, sectors etc. A true low level format is done at the hardware level and creates the cylinder/tracks that read/write head uses to position. Since there are no moving parts in solid state media the "virtual" cylinders are defined in the controller chip.

Back in the IBM XP days (early 80s) there was enough tolerance variance between the controller card and the hard drive (10 Megabyte drive would set you back a few thousand dollars) that in order to get the best performance and stability there was a one-to-one relationship between the card and drive. The drive should be low-level formatted using the card it was connected to. Changing the card or drive the drive again should be low level formatted. A low level format could take hours or even days with some of the later larger disks (40 MB). As manufacturing improved low-level formats outside the factory became unnecessary. Low and full formats also checks for defects in the media.

Here's a far from perfect analogy for analog discs at least:
  • A drive before low level formatting is like a piece of plywood.
  • Low level formatting adds shelves to the plywood. (on solid state drives this is defined in the controller)
  • Full format (logical) adds bins or pigeon holes and creates an index to track the contents of the bins.
  • Quick Format gives you a fresh (blank) copy of the index.
The analogy is imperfect because with pigeon holes you have to physically remove the contents before putting anything else in there where as on a drive/card you can merely overwrite the contents. I left out partitioning the drive which you can define the size of the "bins" (sectors) and total size of the logical drive before doing a full format.

If you suspect corruption a quick format is not going to find problems since it does not check for defects. It may solve logical corruption since the card will be treated as blank and anything on it will be overwritten. If you think the card is going bad you need to do read/write checks and a full format. I would use SDFormatter which uses the SD standards to format the card. Doing a full format from your computer OS will add OS specific structures and may cause comparability issues when put in the camera.

https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_4/

07-24-2016, 05:46 PM - 1 Like   #17
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Update: successfully installed the K3 v.1.21 on my daughter's K3.

I did format the SD card with MY K3.
Copied the file to that same SD card.
Loaded the file to the "other" K3.
Installed with no glitches whatsoever.

Thanks to all for the quick responses and this is very much appreciated !

Cheers !!

JP
07-24-2016, 07:13 PM   #18
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Happy to hear we helped and that all is fixed up as it should be - she's lucky to have your help.
07-24-2016, 07:30 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
Update: successfully installed the K3 v.1.21 on my daughter's K3.

I did format the SD card with MY K3.
Copied the file to that same SD card.
Loaded the file to the "other" K3.
Installed with no glitches whatsoever.

Thanks to all for the quick responses and this is very much appreciated !

Cheers !!

JP

Glad you got it accomplished.....congrats!


Larry

07-24-2016, 08:09 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
Update: successfully installed the K3 v.1.21 on my daughter's K3.

I did format the SD card with MY K3.
Copied the file to that same SD card.
Loaded the file to the "other" K3.
Installed with no glitches whatsoever.

Thanks to all for the quick responses and this is very much appreciated !

Cheers !!

JP
Thanks JP and everyone else....now Iʻm a believer too!
07-25-2016, 07:59 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Happy to hear we helped and that all is fixed up as it should be - she's lucky to have your help.
Thanks to you too and .... she's lucky alright !
Now, on another note: I tried her 150-450 ... pretty good !
Heavy though! and somewhat quite a learning curve with this beast.

---------- Post added 07-25-16 at 11:00 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Glad you got it accomplished.....congrats!


Larry
Thanks !! She's pretty happy too since now she can use this lens the way it is meant to be !

---------- Post added 07-25-16 at 11:04 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Thanks JP and everyone else....now Iʻm a believer too!
Seriously, this forum has the best response rate to any query and with such great help compared to "other" forums where you are simply "brushed off" as an annoyance.

Cheers to all !
07-25-2016, 10:12 PM   #22
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Do you need the reach the 150-450 provides? Essentially the options are;

Sigma/Bigma types 50-500, 150-500, 120-400, etc.
Sigma f4 100-300 + 1.4x TC
Pentax 150-450
Pentax 250-600 (crazy expensive)
Pentax 60-250 + 1.7x
08-01-2016, 01:05 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
As noted above a "quick" format mere re-set, re-writes the index tables often call File Allocation Tables (FAT). A full format (which people commonly mistakenly call a "low level format") will re-write all the logical file structures on the disk - FAT, sectors etc. A true low level format is done at the hardware level and creates the cylinder/tracks that read/write head uses to position. Since there are no moving parts in solid state media the "virtual" cylinders are defined in the controller chip.
This is certainly correct for a magnetic disk. The flash memory in an SD card is not read/writable in the same location by location way as a magnetic disk. The flash memory needs to be erased first, which sets the bits to the all '1' state. A write then only sets the required bits at the location to the '0' state (the other bits remain as '1'). It is not possible to write an individual memory bit back to a '1'. The erase can either be for the full chip, or on a sector by sector (block of locations) basis.

The in camera formatting likely uses the chip erase option to completely erase all the flash chips in the SD card. When a single file is deleted, the sector erase is likely used to free up areas that contain data only from that file. After the erase operation, the file allocation table is updated to indicate the now available memory areas.

08-06-2016, 07:10 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Do you need the reach the 150-450 provides? Essentially the options are;

Sigma/Bigma types 50-500, 150-500, 120-400, etc.
Sigma f4 100-300 + 1.4x TC
Pentax 150-450
Pentax 250-600 (crazy expensive)
Pentax 60-250 + 1.7x
I certainly need the reach
I have an alternative (tried and big fail ! ) ... DA*300/4 + Pentax HD 1.4X TC.
This TC just will not work good with this lens and with the K3 and/or K5: the shots are awful when compared with those with the lens on its own.
Some members here get great results with that combo but not me.
I also had a Sigma 100-300 and the OEM (Sigma) 1.4X TC but it kept on flashing the dreaded F - - -
So it really boils down to trying a 150-450 on my K3 but that is a long shot as I totally forgot to test my daughter's when she was here last week !!! Talk about brain farts!
I tried it alright ... on HER camera!


Cheers!
08-07-2016, 09:54 PM   #25
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I'm surprised your results are bad with the DA* 300 and HD 1.4x, I would be worried the lens or converter is not in spec, but I have heard others say the 150-450 blew away their DA* 300 plus HD DA 1.4x, so you still might be lusting after this lens even if you were getting good shots with the DA* and teleconverter combo.
08-18-2016, 03:46 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I'm surprised your results are bad with the DA* 300 and HD 1.4x, I would be worried the lens or converter is not in spec, but I have heard others say the 150-450 blew away their DA* 300 plus HD DA 1.4x, so you still might be lusting after this lens even if you were getting good shots with the DA* and teleconverter combo.
Sorry replying late.
It looks like the TC itself might be the culprit but as I don't have another camera/lens to try it on, I really don't know what to do.

The choices:
1. Send the camera+lens AND the TC for "calibration" (if that can be done) somewhere here in Canada (preferably at Ricoh directly).
Problem: I would be without my favorite telephoto lens for God knows how long !
My DA*300/4 is so sharp that I am scared that they could mess it up.
That means no birding for quite some time. Might as well wait until November when all is quiet, before the Snowy Owls return.
No sure how much this would cost either.
2. Stay put and forget about the TC (perhaps sell it and see if someone else would be lucky with it); it is in pristine condition as I really take care of my photo gear.
3. Send the TC to my daughter and ask her to test it on her 150-450 ?? (that is a thought ... whatever good that could do).

Cheers!

JP
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