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09-02-2017, 01:06 AM   #1
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how much is usefull shake reduction

I was wondering about shake reduction system - I mean how ( actually ) is it good on K3... Since I have Oly Pen with 5 Axis stabilisation - and which is just incredible , I came to conclusion the Pentax Shake reduction on K3 - is not even a close match to that one.

Of course, larger sensor is heavier to control, because of larger movements - and heavier camera and longer distance from front of lens to the sensor is also the values we must equally justify.

But, in practice - who care about that - all we want to see is results. And my results are pretty poor.

I'm having troubles with sharper pics in difficult circumstances - low light - and when you have to slow down your shutter speed - it would be then. In low light environment .

So - my test, shows - with classical zoom lens - like Sigma 17-70 MM -

I cannot go below 1/30 - with very steady hands - in 70 mm end. Sometimes I get clean and sharp image with 1/20 - but the line is there.


It's really poor , but I understand the thing the K3 was first pentax with in camera body stabilisation - and performance is not as good in compare with leaders in that segment.

( Olympus in latest OMD offer 5 sec handheld sharp pic , even in zoom end - and it's not a marketing trick I've seen this pics - it's just truly impressive )

---

What's your experience here ?


Last edited by panonski; 09-02-2017 at 01:42 AM.
09-02-2017, 01:49 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
It's really poor , but I understand the thing the K3 was first pentax with in camera body stabilisation - and performance is not as good in compare with leaders in that segment.
I'm sorry but that is just not true. Pentax has been doing IBIS since the K10D that came out in 2006. They were one of the first if not the first to actually do IBIS making them actually one of the leaders in that segment. I have always been impressed by Pentax' stabilization since my first DSLR the K200D and the new improved 5-axis stabilization of my K-1 impresses me even more.
09-02-2017, 01:54 AM   #3
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I have never done any testing other than real world testing of using my K 3 hand held.

I have used all of my lens up to and including the D FA 150 - 450 zoom coupled with the 1.4 rear converter and .

it works for me only because of the SR

and that is all I need

IMHO, it works well, YMMV
09-02-2017, 02:00 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by alpheios Quote
I'm sorry but that is just not true. Pentax has been doing IBIS since the K10D that came out in 2006. They were one of the first if not the first to actually do IBIS making them actually one of the leaders in that segment. I have always been impressed by Pentax' stabilization since my first DSLR the K200D and the new improved 5-axis stabilization of my K-1 impresses me even more.

hmmmm - my mistake then

---------- Post added 09-02-17 at 02:10 AM ----------

It's also important to say - in High Iso - and low light environment - the results of sharpness - can be very different. Low detailed image because of high iso noise, is just not good enough - to stand with even small lack of sharpness.

If you don't get your focus well, or with little shaky hands - the results would be much worse , then in low lso, and good lighting ..

So - it's critical to say here - In right circumstances for SR - and that would be low light, SR is not good enough. ( at least for me - and with K3 - partly because I'm spoiled with Oly )

Mix that with 2.8 to 5.6 apertures and miss focus because of thin depth of sharpness - and put yourself in real lowlight situation, like some occasion, concert, or people...


Last edited by panonski; 09-02-2017 at 02:13 AM.
09-02-2017, 02:32 AM - 2 Likes   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
It's also important to say - in High Iso - and low light environment - the results of sharpness - can be very different. Low detailed image because of high iso noise, is just not good enough - to stand with even small lack of sharpness.

If you don't get your focus well, or with little shaky hands - the results would be much worse , then in low lso, and good lighting ..

So - it's critical to say here - In right circumstances for SR - and that would be low light, SR is not good enough. ( at least for me - and with K3 - partly because I'm spoiled with Oly )
SR still requires good technique. I have very unsteady hands, but with proper hold and breathing, and the K-3 / K-3II's SR, I can take detailed, long-focal-length shots at least a couple of stops beyond the advisable shutter speed. I'd say it's more than "good enough". I also use a Sony A7 Mark II with 5-axis stabilization. It's a little more forgiving, perhaps, but really not much at all.
09-02-2017, 02:42 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
SR still requires good technique. I have very unsteady hands, but with proper hold and breathing, and the K-3 / K-3II's SR, I can take detailed, long-focal-length shots at least a couple of stops beyond the advisable shutter speed. I'd say it's more than "good enough". I also use a Sony A7 Mark II with 5-axis stabilization. It's a little more forgiving, perhaps, but really not much at all.
as I say - all of us - had their own expectations -

I would love to hear - what's your results - in the lowest shutter speed - higher Iso - and bigger focal length . ( possibly even at low apperture - to maximise your chances to get blur )

I got very very steady hands, I'm also a good gun shutter because of that. But in 70 mm end - and high Iso - I cannot go below 1/30 , and in Oly - I can get sharp image even with 1/6 sec.

Last edited by panonski; 09-02-2017 at 02:58 AM.
09-02-2017, 02:43 AM   #7
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I've been pretty pleased with shake reduction. I haven't used an Olympus camera enough to know how they compare, although people speak highly of Olympus shake reduction. The time I use SR the most is with shooting waterfalls and I can get sharp images at 55mm and 1/8 second on the K3.

As for the 5 second exposure, I do have a hard time believing that you could have a pixel sharp image at that length of time without being on a tripod. At 50mm, say, that would be 8 stops of compensation with the image stabilization system which is far more than olympus advertises. In fact, Olympus released a statement a year ago saying that even with a combo of lens and body stabilization (available with only a few lenses) the maximum shake reduction was 6.5 stops due to the rotation of the earth.
09-02-2017, 02:46 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
and I can get sharp images at 55mm and 1/8 second on the K3.

.
very nice dude !

09-02-2017, 03:08 AM - 3 Likes   #9
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This the DA *55 at 1/10 second.
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09-02-2017, 03:11 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
I would love to hear - what's your results - in the lowest shutter speed - higher Iso - and bigger focal length .
I've just gone outside and done a quick test with my K-3 and DA*60-250. At 250mm, with a long-distance shot (where the focal length is close to a genuine 250mm), the slowest advisable shutter speed - taking into account the 1.5x crop factor - without SR would be 1/375s. With SR activated, hand-holding without any support and breathing carefully, I'm getting reliable results - good enough for pixel-peeping - at 1/80s. Even at 1/60s, it's pretty consistent. Below that, my keeper rate seems to drop very significantly - but, someone with a steadier hold than me could probably squeeze a little more out of it. As it is, I'm getting around 2 to 2.5 stops advantage with SR, which isn't bad at all. I'm sure there are other cameras that may do better, and some that may be worse. But I'd certainly say this is "good enough".

QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
I got very very steady hands, I'm also a good gun shutter because of that. But in 70 mm end - and high Iso - I cannot go below 1/30 , and in Oly - I can get sharp image even with 1/6 sec.
Well, steady hands aren't the only requirement. As I mentioned, I don't have steady hands - I haven't had for many years. Still, I used to shoot small-bore and field target air-rifle with very good accuracy, due to learned technique. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with your technique, just that steady hands are a different thing (or, perhaps, just one aspect)
09-02-2017, 03:31 AM   #11
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in Old Film era - the suggested speed limit was at 1/30 ...as slowest you can go. I tried this, and yes - it was the line for hand held shoting with 50 mm lens ( let's say ) .

--

Why is pixel peep relevant here ? Because of noise in high iso. You cannot get even decent pic without tack sharpness. Every imperfection would delivery - really unusable results.

Speaking about technique - let's say this - it's far better to increase your Iso - even at 10.000, then get blurry, mushy, underexposed pic with 6400 or 3200 . (k3 can handle even 12800 with this technique )
And I was't aware of that for a long time... because of that I was always trying to do stuff below 3200 ,

and that's wrong. Wrong for sharpness, and wrong for noise. Yes, you get correct reading about this statement. But it's true. I learned that.

explanation is because - if you do your pics below proper exposure - and specially if you do that in dark somewhere, on concert or some people occasion indoor,

for example - your decision is to go with 3200 - but let's say it's still insufficient lightning for 1/45;1/60 and 6,7 apperture - and you think you would quite easy compensate that with exposure in LR you'll be WRONG.
You will be getting the worse pic,
then you was go with different approach - iso - 9000, and 1/60 at f-6,7 .

Every single photographer - almost 99 % of us - is telling the one single story - and I was also one of them - use lower Iso as you can. So we think that 0,5-1 Ev underexposed pic in some darker room would do the job, and will be getting tack sharp image without noise, just beacuse we want lower Iso.

True is opposite in that darker area - I'm not telling this about good lighting - it'r reserved for darker spaces.

In darker area you have to choose to little overexposed white bright areas, and proper exposure shadows. Shadows from lower ISo shot would not be properly exposed just because you put it in LR after that - and raised exposure to proper value, and it would be look mushier, and with more artifacts .


Second factor here is SR, and high Iso offer better choice for shutter to be at least 1/30 - or 1/60 .

---

try this advice for yourself. You will be shocked that 3200 post processed in LR is not good as 9000 unprocessed - if the enviroment was in darker room, and 3200 was insufficient for 1/30 speed for at least 6.7 apperture

I know low Iso technique is little off topic here - but when we talk about conditions I must bring it up here.


Last edited by panonski; 09-02-2017 at 05:01 AM.
09-02-2017, 04:15 AM - 2 Likes   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
Speaking about technique - let's say this - it's far better to increase your Iso - even at 10.000, then get blurry, mushy, underexposed pic with 6400 or 3200 . (k3 can handle even 12800 with this technique )
And I was't aware of that for a long time... because of that I was always trying to do stuff below 3200
Here, we agree to some extent. I often shoot in TAv mode, choosing the shutter speed and aperture I want for creative control, and allowing the camera to select a suitable ISO. In many situations, I'd rather have a noisier but well-exposed, blur-free shot with the depth-of-field I intended, than a lower-ISO shot that has been compromised creatively. In those situations where I need to keep the ISO lower (for instance, to retain as much detail as possible by limiting noise), I'll drop the shutter speed and take several shots in succession (either using continuous shooting, or manually). One of those will usually be blur-free thanks to SR.
09-02-2017, 04:41 AM - 2 Likes   #13
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I'm not sure if we are actually arguing. In general, there are few subjects that are going to be sharp with a five second exposure -- people move, leaves move, etc. So, if you want to freeze subject motion, you have to have a decent shutter speed, even if you could hand hold with a 1 second exposure. The exception to me is waterfalls. I try to shoot them with a tripod, but if I don't have one along SR does help stabilize things to the point that I can blur the water.

09-02-2017, 04:45 AM - 1 Like   #14
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I've also found that Pentax SR is pretty good -- a reliable 3 stops of stabilization for sure (e.g., 12 mm UWA shots in low-light cathedrals @ 0.7 sec, 50 mm @ 1/6 sec, 300 mm @ 1/30 sec). With luck I've done 4-stops in low-light -- handheld astrophotography and moon-lit hiking with 50mm @ 1/2 sec but the keeper rate is not 100%.

One big issue is that SR only stops camera motion. It does not stop subject motion. For concerts or candid scenes with people, 1/30 is the practical lower limit because of subject motion, not camera shake.
09-02-2017, 04:57 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
For concerts or candid scenes with people, 1/30 is the practical lower limit because of subject motion, not camera shake.
that's also correct
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