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06-11-2018, 12:16 PM - 1 Like   #586
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
All OnBoard Flash units are tiny point-source things. They all create harsh shadows. Period.

You doesn't know how to work with it. That's all.

50 years in photography, and you're afraid of using one flash unit

06-11-2018, 12:22 PM   #587
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
You doesn't know how to work with it. That's all.

50 years in photography, and you're afraid of using one flash unit
Nope! I no longer settle for second-best.
Found a better way to work with what is there - and so has Pentax!
06-11-2018, 12:38 PM   #588
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I'm another one who really appreciates the gps and happily trade it for the built in flash. I've got a proper flash when (rarely) I feel like using one.

I can't see myself upgrading to a camera without gps. I've never held it but the form factor of the KP appeals to me. A KP II with fixed screen, to shave a few mm off the thickness, and gps instead for flash would be quite interesting. Correlating gps data with the phone is to fiddly and vulnerable to forgetfulness. I did this for years.
06-11-2018, 12:40 PM   #589
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
You doesn't know how to work with it. That's all.

50 years in photography, and you're afraid of using one flash unit
Give us some examples. Can you post some images taken with the help of the on board flash? We may be able to learn something from this. For example, a guy experimented one day by taking portraits using candles and mirrors to direct the light on the models face. Interesting experiment.

I know that I don't miss the on board flash at all but it will be interesting to see images where the on board flash was used in a creative way.

06-11-2018, 01:33 PM - 1 Like   #590
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
camera without flash is not acceptable by any means... GPS handy, but Flash is needed.
You say that as if it were a statement of fact For you, a camera without flash may not be acceptable. I know the internal flash on cameras can be put to good use, and there are some members here who do so quite effectively, but it's a feature with limited range and utility. Many photographers, myself included, never (or very rarely) use the in-built flash if a camera has one. The only time I use mine (on the cameras that have it) is for quick snaps - not real photographs. So, you can say it's not acceptable for you, but that's not the case for everyone. I don't have internal flash on my K-3II, Hasselblad HV or Sony A7 MkII, and I never miss it...

I'm quite surprised that you bought the KP if the internal flash is so important to you, as it's a pretty low power unit on that camera...
06-11-2018, 01:44 PM   #591
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
You doesn't know how to work with it. That's all.

50 years in photography, and you're afraid of using one flash unit
Agree. Flash is hard, but not all flash need look bad.


This picture here I used the pop-up as a fill, but it's barely noticeable.
(sorry for the fugly watermark... it's from back when I was paranoid and had some kind of blog)
It would have turned near-black if I didn't have it.

Having since bought two manual flashes that can be used as radio TX and RX, I've played quite a lot with on camera, bounce and off-camera flash.
It's difficult, but it's so much fun!
06-11-2018, 02:40 PM - 2 Likes   #592
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
You say that as if it were a statement of fact For you, a camera without flash may not be acceptable. I know the internal flash on cameras can be put to good use, and there are some members here who do so quite effectively, but it's a feature with limited range and utility. Many photographers, myself included, never (or very rarely) use the in-built flash if a camera has one. The only time I use mine (on the cameras that have it) is for quick snaps - not real photographs. So, you can say it's not acceptable for you, but that's not the case for everyone. I don't have internal flash on my K-3II, Hasselblad HV or Sony A7 MkII, and I never miss it...

I'm quite surprised that you bought the KP if the internal flash is so important to you, as it's a pretty low power unit on that camera...
Exactly!

About one third of all interchangeable lens camera models lack a built-in flash including most of the pro models from Canon, Nikon, and Sony. These camera all sell quite well despite this supposedly fatal flaw.

Built-in flash may fill a niche (or a shadow) for some photographers but there are a lot of photographers that either shoot only ambient light images or who prefer standalone flashes or studio lighting. Personally, the only time I used the built-in flash on my old K-5 was to optically trigger another flash about 10 feet away.

Moreover, the high-ISO and high-DR of modern Pentax cameras really reduces the need for any kind of flash. Back in my film days, I used a dual flash system all the time for macro because that was the only way to get usable images on ASA 64 slide film. These days I still shoot a lot of macro but just bump up the ISO.

Last edited by photoptimist; 06-11-2018 at 03:53 PM. Reason: typo
06-11-2018, 03:47 PM   #593
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QuoteOriginally posted by panonski Quote
You doesn't know how to work with it. That's all.

50 years in photography, and you're afraid of using one flash unit
Wrong absolutely wrong. Wrong comment, wrong attitude and wrong sentiment. The source of light for photographs is not the top of your head. This issue has been around for many years even in the time of flash bulbs, tiny weak flash tubes are more of a hindrance to photographic technique. If you are "afraid" of using a real flash, then do not denigrate those who do.

To LensBeginner, please show us a set of images, with flash and without, of the same object. I bet you will not see significant differences.

06-11-2018, 04:35 PM - 2 Likes   #594
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For what it is worth I really dislike the on board flash on all 3 of my DSLR cameras. It always seems to cause a shadow of the lens hood in whatever shots I have tried to use it for.

At least a flash in a hot shoe stands high enough to avoid that.

But.

A flash mounted on the camera always creates a very flat image, with little or no modeling. A flash on a stand, to one side however, will create a very nicely modeled subject.
06-11-2018, 10:01 PM   #595
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QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
A flash mounted on the camera always creates a very flat image, with little or no modeling. A flash on a stand, to one side however, will create a very nicely modeled subject.
Try that at a wedding. Obviously, there are scenarios, and quite common ones, where a camera-mounted flash is the only workable option. And saying "always" ignores the possibility of bouncing the flash off a ceiling if it's not too high (indoor only, of course).
06-11-2018, 10:31 PM - 1 Like   #596
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Of all the weddings I have attended with Pro shooters, not a single one used a built in flash. When they used flash, they used speedlights. In fact none of the bodies they used had built in flash, which is the point here.
06-12-2018, 12:04 AM   #597
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QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
To LensBeginner, please show us a set of images, with flash and without, of the same object. I bet you will not see significant differences.
Uh... that comment I cannot understand.
Of course there will be a difference, how much difference there is, it depends on the distance.
I've been able to make some photos in a very dark pub with the help of a small white cardboard piece in front of the pop-up. Most of the light is bounced (ceiling, walls), but you can see catchlights, so some is also straight.
I can't post those, though, since they are portraits (Italian law is different from American law).
I've also done lots of macro with my old K100D using a homemade cardboard ringflash adapter (cardboard and tin foil).

To post a set of images with and without flash would probably entail shooting it on purpose. I will try to do that when I get the chance.

My point is, even if you don't use the pop-up to control an external flash, you can use it creatively.
06-12-2018, 02:23 AM - 1 Like   #598
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QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
For what it is worth I really dislike the on board flash on all 3 of my DSLR cameras. It always seems to cause a shadow of the lens hood in whatever shots I have tried to use it for.

At least a flash in a hot shoe stands high enough to avoid that.

But.

A flash mounted on the camera always creates a very flat image, with little or no modeling. A flash on a stand, to one side however, will create a very nicely modeled subject.
External flashes are extremely helpful because they alter the position of the flash, allow for bouncing, they are more powerful, and it is easier to attach a diffuser or some kind of flash bender to them. The biggest problem I see with people using flash is that they set their iso too low and you really don't get enough ambient light in.

I have tried to use the pop up flash and have never been really satisfied with the results either. My feeling is that with a top end camera like the K3 III or K-1 it is reasonable to expect that photographers will bring an external flash with them if they want/need additional light source. The pop up flash should be kept on lower models, but honestly iso performance is good enough the K70 and KP that I probably would bump iso quite a bit before I would break out the pop up flash.
06-12-2018, 03:08 AM - 1 Like   #599
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
External flashes are extremely helpful because they alter the position of the flash, allow for bouncing, they are more powerful, and it is easier to attach a diffuser or some kind of flash bender to them. The biggest problem I see with people using flash is that they set their iso too low and you really don't get enough ambient light in.

I have tried to use the pop up flash and have never been really satisfied with the results either. My feeling is that with a top end camera like the K3 III or K-1 it is reasonable to expect that photographers will bring an external flash with them if they want/need additional light source. The pop up flash should be kept on lower models, but honestly iso performance is good enough the K70 and KP that I probably would bump iso quite a bit before I would break out the pop up flash.
Well, if you use it as a fill, it doesn't matter which ISO you're shooting at... you could be at ISO100 and still use it, in broad daylight.
You are more likely have the opposite issue, that is, you need a ND to bring shutter speed down to 1/180s
06-12-2018, 03:11 AM   #600
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
Well, if you use it as a fill, it doesn't matter which ISO you're shooting at... you could be at ISO100 and still use it, in broad daylight.
You are more likely have the opposite issue, that is, you need a ND to bring shutter speed down to 1/180s
Sure. I have tried it for that purpose, but I found it too weak for most situations in full daylight. You have to be standing pretty close to your subject in order to have the pop up flash provide decent fill light and as you say, if it is very bright you have to stop down a bunch or add an ND filter as well to allow for flash sync speed.

I'm not saying the pop up flash is useless, I just haven't used it and prefer an external flash for situations where I need additional light.
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