[LensBeginner]

Sure. I have tried it for that purpose, but I found it too weak for most situations in full daylight. You have to be standing pretty close to your subject in order to have the pop up flash provide decent fill light and as you say, if it is very bright you have to stop down a bunch or add an ND filter as well to allow for flash sync speed.

I'm not saying the pop up flash is useless, I just haven't used it and prefer an external flash for situations where I need additional light.

I do as well... in fact I have 2. But in a pinch, it's better than nothing. It also saves you a trigger if you're in a line-of-sight situation and need one more off-camera flash than you have.
That said, I have no issues with buying a camera with integrated GPS and no pop-up flash.

[Dan Rentea]

I love shooting with flashes when I have the necessary time and mood. I rarely use a speedlight on camera. Mostly I use it at corporate events when I'm allowed to use flash and also because I have to move constantly. When I use it, I always try to bounce it so that I can eliminate strong shadows which a direct ligh will produce (aside from the harsh light).

When comes to portraits, I never use a speedlight on camera. I rather put a trigger on the hot shue of my camera and keep my flash in one hand and shoot with the other hand if I have no other solution. I do love a strong light from time to time at portraits, but I use a beauty dish or a long range reflector if I want to achieve a certain look. For me the on board flash is more than useless because:
- has little power
- can't be bounced (you can use some small cards to difuse or bounce the light, but you lose power which is already little)
- I don't rely on optical slave
- as long as a decent trigger costs 50$ and is smaller than a pack of cigarettes, what's the point in using a tiny source of light.

Save God that the spedlights released in the last 1-2 years have build in triggers (recievers and transmitters). I would replace anytime of the day the build in flash with a joystick to change faster the af points.

[reh321]

i have various flash units I've collected over the years, but about the only time I use them is at home, for family "snapshots". A typical un-posed picture may have someone five feet away and someone else twenty feet away; physics would seem to doom flash in this situation, because the light that goes twenty feet is 1/16-th as strong when it reaches its subjects as is the light that goes five feet .... and then it has to return and suffer the same loss, but bouncing off the ceiling eliminates shadows and makes the distances more comparable. The Canon flash I still have is a powerful unit, and it pivots both ways, for both horizontally-composed and vertically-composed pictures.

This year I have taken a total of three flash pictures - one at New Year's Day and two this past weekend during the memorial events for my mother.


Thirty-plus years ago I took a four generation picture
* my mother's mother
* my mother
* my sister
* Kelly, my sister's new baby

That picture is very precious to all of us, and everyone valued it during the memorial events, but the harsh shadows still offend me.

Last year about this time I took another four generation picture, which I paired with the previous one for the memorial events; everyone was too kind to point out how much better it is than the previous one.
* my mother
* my sister
* Kelly
* Kelly's daughter

This time I bounced the flash off the ceiling, and the picture was much better

[Lew Dite]

Of all the weddings I have attended with Pro shooters, not a single one used a built in flash. When they used flash, they used speedlights. In fact none of the bodies they used had built in flash, which is the point here.

I didn't say built-in flash. I said camera-mounted flash and I meant exactly that. That's what a Speedlight is. But thanks for confirming what I've always seen at weddings, too. And also note my mention of bouncing off the ceiling. Can't do that with a built-in, right?

[JimJohnson]

Give us some examples. Can you post some images taken with the help of the on board flash? We may be able to learn something from this. For example, a guy experimented one day by taking portraits using candles and mirrors to direct the light on the models face. Interesting experiment.

I know that I don't miss the on board flash at all but it will be interesting to see images where the on board flash was used in a creative way.

I use the popup flash fairly often for either fill or controller for my external flash when I am travelling light (please ignore pun) and have room for only one or all too often, no external flash. As much as I would like to automatically store location for my images, the popup is of much greater value to me.

The example below was taken pre-K-3 with a K-30, but it still illustrates the point-
My wife and I flew down to Austin, Texas to visit our daughter and son-in-law. Had I KNOWN my daughter was going to hit me up within 30 minutes of arrival for a headshot to go with her bio (she is a self-employed technical document certified translator), I would have somehow brought a couple extra pieces of equipment. There was no suitable backdrop in her home, and the sun was way too contrasty even with fill flash. I finally put her in deep shade behind her garage with enough depth to blur the background. I used my spouse as a light stand with my external flash to simulate (more controlled) sunshine. I used the popup as a controller and for fill. The result is shown below. Great? No. But more than adequate to the need.

[Dan Rentea]

I use the popup flash fairly often for either fill or controller for my external flash when I am travelling light (please ignore pun) and have room for only one or all too often, no external flash. As much as I would like to automatically store location for my images, the popup is of much greater value to me.

The example below was taken pre-K-3 with a K-30, but it still illustrates the point-
My wife and I flew down to Austin, Texas to visit our daughter and son-in-law. Had I KNOWN my daughter was going to hit me up within 30 minutes of arrival for a headshot to go with her bio (she is a self-employed technical document certified translator), I would have somehow brought a couple extra pieces of equipment. There was no suitable backdrop in her home, and the sun was way too contrasty even with fill flash. I finally put her in deep shade behind her garage with enough depth to blur the background. I used my spouse as a light stand with my external flash to simulate (more controlled) sunshine. I used the popup as a controller and for fill. The result is shown below. Great? No. But more than adequate to the need.

When I travel, I take with me the following:

- one camera
- a 35mm prime lens or a 16-35mm f4 lens
- the 85mm f1.8 lens (it's super light) or the 70-200mm f4 lens
- a Godox TT685 which soon will be replace for traveling with Godox TT350
- a XPro1 transmitter (as long as I take with me a flash, I always bring along a trigger and if I don't have space in my backpack, I rather leave at home the batteries for the flash and for trigger and also the charger for them because I can find batteries at any street market)
- a rogue flash bender (like this one ExpoImaging Rogue FlashBender 2 Softbox Kit (Small) ROGUEBOXSM2 )
- a 3 stops ND filter because I'm not much of a fan of HSS
- a less glossy silver plastic bag (it can be used anytime as a reflector)
- a very small and light backpack which I absolutely love ( Used Lowepro Flipside Sport 10L AW Daypack LP36421 B&H Photo ) It fits all the above in it and also a shirt and a bottle of water (0.5l).

With this accessories, I can deal with lots of challanges. If I don't have a speedlight with me and if I realy (and I mean realy) need a small amount of light, I use the light from my phone. If it's not enough, I use the light from my wife's phone also. It's good enough because I can move it independently from my camera

[xmeda]

Build-in flash is important part of camera. Omitting it does NOT bring any advantage, just removes functionality.

It is the only light source you have in camera for situation, where nothing else is available. And even though I have 4 external flash units including AF540FGZ, there is no chance I will carry external flash everywhere. Then in pitch dark you have unusable camera and you only can grab your phone... which is horrible workaround method.
With K5 I can take only body+18-135WR and I have small ligt kit, that I can use to take pic even in tunnel if I have to. With K3II/K1 I'm fu**ed. Many times I left home just with the body and 1-2 lenses and then the buil-in flash was only thing that saved me later for some interior shots. There is no camera, that can take usable pic in poorly lit room just by pumping up the sensitivity. You'll quickly run out of ISO range and photos with 1/20s F3.5 and ISO51200 are simply not usable even with mighty K1 sensor. While with K5/K3 you just set 1/60s, F5.6, ISO400 and you can take clean short range pics with no problem.


Second important use is external flash commander. And again.. even though I have several external units, I am NOT willing to carry TWO just to be able to fire one off-camera flash. That is insane. All I need with K5 is one AF540FGH placed where I need and camera fires it with wireless. And yes, it is reliable. (If photographer knows how to work with it).


Even cameras like D810, D750 etc have build-in flash. It is not meant to be used on daily basis. It is backup for situation, where no other option is available.

Btw. my old K20D also can use build-in flash as AF light. Yes it is harsh and green diode is much more discrete. BUT in complete darkness this flash AF assist is capable to lit area unreachable by green diode or red AF assist light of external flash attached to camera.



Guys constantly repeating how they don't use build-in flah are like: Hey, remove headlights from my car, that is just waste as I only ride in daylight! I cannot observe mountains on horizont with those small lights anywas, so throw them away and save space for some GPS!

Wrong. If you cannot operate something, it does NOT automatically means, that others do not need that functionality. And concerning K3II this was the deal-killer for me. The only way they can remove buil-in flash is to provide small portable external flash that can feed from camera. Even the reduced unit on KP is better than nothing. And all Pentax bodies since 80" till the K3II +K1 HAD build-in flah. All of them. Until some horrible marketing guy decided to save $5 by removing that functionality from camera.

[Dan Rentea]

Build-in flash is important part of camera. Omitting it does NOT bring any advantage, just removes functionality.

Removing the built in flash to me it means a better water sealed camera and one piece less to break.

It is the only light source you have in camera for situation, where nothing else is available. And even though I have 4 external flash units including AF540FGZ, there is no chance I will carry external flash everywhere. Then in pitch dark you have unusable camera and you only can grab your phone... which is horrible workaround method.
With K5 I can take only body+18-135WR and I have small ligt kit, that I can use to take pic even in tunnel if I have to. With K3II/K1 I'm fu**ed. Many times I left home just with the body and 1-2 lenses and then the buil-in flash was only thing that saved me later for some interior shots. There is no camera, that can take usable pic in poorly lit room just by pumping up the sensitivity. You'll quickly run out of ISO range and photos with 1/20s F3.5 and ISO51200 are simply not usable even with mighty K1 sensor. While with K5/K3 you just set 1/60s, F5.6, ISO400 and you can take clean short range pics with no problem.

There is no camera that with the built in flash can take good images in pitch dark situations, especially if you have to drop the ISO from 6400 (I didn't wanted to mention your settings in which you mentioned ISO 51200) to ISO 400. So lets give an usable example, starting with the following: You shoot a model/ a friend/a girlfriend in the center of a town, at night. You see a nice building that you want to include in the frame when you take a portrait of the model. You have to choose between ISO 6400 or ISO 12800, 1/60s, f3.5 and no flash or ISO 400, 1/60s, f5.6 with built in flash. I can assure you that the best way to make the building (or a tunnel since you gave this example) dissapear is to use your settings.

I assume you already know that:
- the aperture controls the flash power (so if you use f5.6 instead of f3.5 you will loose even more power from that tiny flash)
- the shutter speed controls ambient light (if you have a pitch dark image at 1/20s, at 1/60s will be even darker the ambient light)
- ISO controls global light (that means that given the above settings for the shutter speed and aperture, if you will have ambient light at ISO6400 or ISO 12800, then at ISO 400 you will loose the ambient light even if you use a more powerfull flash. Using a tiny built in flash in these circumstances means that you will have a illuminated model with direct flat light on her face but with pitch black background and strong shaddows behind her.

Second important use is external flash commander. And again.. even though I have several external units, I am NOT willing to carry TWO just to be able to fire one off-camera flash. That is insane. All I need with K5 is one AF540FGH placed where I need and camera fires it with wireless. And yes, it is reliable. (If photographer knows how to work with it).

Let me take you outdoor and you will see how reliable your optical solution is. Let me put the external flash inside a softbox and you will also see how reliable is. Or let me put the flash on a stand somewhere behind me and see how reliable is. Or, try and change the power of your external flash/flashes with the built in flash. And I can give tons of othe examples why carrying a trigger with you when you have an external flash with you is a lot better than relying on that tiny flash... Trust me, I do know how to work with a flash, with 2, with 3 or with 6 flashes.

Even cameras like D810, D750 etc have build-in flash. It is not meant to be used on daily basis. It is backup for situation, where no other option is available.

That's why they don't have it in the newer cameras (D850/D500).

Btw. my old K20D also can use build-in flash as AF light. Yes it is harsh and green diode is much more discrete. BUT in complete darkness this flash AF assist is capable to lit area unreachable by green diode or red AF assist light of external flash attached to camera.

That's why a phone is also handy or the af assist light from the trigger.

Guys constantly repeating how they don't use build-in flah are like: Hey, remove headlights from my car, that is just waste as I only ride in daylight! I cannot observe mountains on horizont with those small lights anywas, so throw them away and save space for some GPS!

Wrong. If you cannot operate something, it does NOT automatically means, that others do not need that functionality. And concerning K3II this was the deal-killer for me. The only way they can remove buil-in flash is to provide small portable external flash that can feed from camera. Even the reduced unit on KP is better than nothing. And all Pentax bodies since 80" till the K3II +K1 HAD build-in flah. All of them. Until some horrible marketing guy decided to save $5 by removing that functionality from camera.

There is no relation between the headlines from a car with build in flash. As far as the horrible marketing guy... I think it was/is a brilliant guy. Removing the build in flash made beginners learn about how to control the light and the shadows by moving or changing the angle of an external source of light. Popping up a tiny flash makes photographers lazy when comes to learn better ways to illuminate a subject.

[Jon Petersen]

I have just updated my signature - I bought an as-new demo-model K-3 in Germany at a very reasonable price and am very happy with it so far.

I got around half the cost back on selling my well-used K-5 house, fair trade I think.

:-)

[Rondec]

Build-in flash is important part of camera. Omitting it does NOT bring any advantage, just removes functionality.

It is the only light source you have in camera for situation, where nothing else is available. And even though I have 4 external flash units including AF540FGZ, there is no chance I will carry external flash everywhere. Then in pitch dark you have unusable camera and you only can grab your phone... which is horrible workaround method.
With K5 I can take only body+18-135WR and I have small ligt kit, that I can use to take pic even in tunnel if I have to. With K3II/K1 I'm fu**ed. Many times I left home just with the body and 1-2 lenses and then the buil-in flash was only thing that saved me later for some interior shots. There is no camera, that can take usable pic in poorly lit room just by pumping up the sensitivity. You'll quickly run out of ISO range and photos with 1/20s F3.5 and ISO51200 are simply not usable even with mighty K1 sensor. While with K5/K3 you just set 1/60s, F5.6, ISO400 and you can take clean short range pics with no problem.


Second important use is external flash commander. And again.. even though I have several external units, I am NOT willing to carry TWO just to be able to fire one off-camera flash. That is insane. All I need with K5 is one AF540FGH placed where I need and camera fires it with wireless. And yes, it is reliable. (If photographer knows how to work with it).


Even cameras like D810, D750 etc have build-in flash. It is not meant to be used on daily basis. It is backup for situation, where no other option is available.

Btw. my old K20D also can use build-in flash as AF light. Yes it is harsh and green diode is much more discrete. BUT in complete darkness this flash AF assist is capable to lit area unreachable by green diode or red AF assist light of external flash attached to camera.



Guys constantly repeating how they don't use build-in flah are like: Hey, remove headlights from my car, that is just waste as I only ride in daylight! I cannot observe mountains on horizont with those small lights anywas, so throw them away and save space for some GPS!

Wrong. If you cannot operate something, it does NOT automatically means, that others do not need that functionality. And concerning K3II this was the deal-killer for me. The only way they can remove buil-in flash is to provide small portable external flash that can feed from camera. Even the reduced unit on KP is better than nothing. And all Pentax bodies since 80" till the K3II +K1 HAD build-in flah. All of them. Until some horrible marketing guy decided to save $5 by removing that functionality from camera.

I think the issue is simply that Pentax wanted to put the astrotracer/GPS unit into their top end cameras -- the K-1 and K3 II. It is hard to argue either way. People who use the pop up flash all the time, as you apparently do, will argue that the GPS is a waste of space and they should stand pat with their old style. But Pentax is not just selling cameras to you and in their calculations they would sell more units by including something that competitors don't have and don't have access to than to just continue with a pop up flash.

Personally, I don't use the pop up flash and I do use the GPS unit, but if Pentax could include both without sacrificing much on size, I would be fine with that too.

[Dan Rentea]

There is a forum member that I think he was blocked from this thread. His username is panonski and he wanted to prove with images why he thinks that the built in flash is helpfull.

He asked me in a private message to show you the images which he thinks that are a good example of using the built in flash. To me these examples are the opposite of what I consider to be a good use of built in flash, but each of you can draw his own conclusions.

on board flash use -pentax k3 - Album on Imgur

[Reed]

I barely used the built in flash in any of my cameras for 10years of being Pentaxian and before that. But I once had a weird idea to do a photoshoot for one of my models with built in flash of my K-30(kinda in Terry Richardson fashion), and guess what? The capacitor within the camera body exploded well camera was replaced but that episode kinda cured me of any thinking of using that again

[woodworm]

Why can't we have built in flash and GPS?

I have used built in flash occassionally, but as most of my photo's over the years have been travel I would choose GPS first.

[taktoon]

After purchasing k-70 i used pop up flash once... (after 15k pictures) with bad result . Similar situation before with the gx20 (k20d clone and this one is ~70k). With a7s... I do not feel any need of this feature, but it is only my opinion.

There is a forum member that I think he was blocked from this thread. His username is panonski and he wanted to prove with images why he thinks that the built in flash is helpfull.

He asked me in a private message to show you the images which he thinks that are a good example of using the built in flash. To me these examples are the opposite of what I consider to be a good use of built in flash, but each of you can draw his own conclusions.

on board flash use -pentax k3 - Album on Imgur

This are the situations where I would probably never consider using pop-up flash, but still it is only opinion.

[LensBeginner]

I have just updated my signature - I bought an as-new demo-model K-3 in Germany at a very reasonable price and am very happy with it so far.

I got around half the cost back on selling my well-used K-5 house, fair trade I think.

:-)

...coming from a K1000 it's one hell of an upgrade!