Rant: Reviews of defective equipment

**luftfluss** · 10-24-2014, 09:36 AM

Recently some errr, individual posted a review of the Pentax-Q 03 Fisheye... he awarded the lens a score of 1 because he claimed that nothing was "within an acceptable focus". Then he went on to give his creds as a photographer (nearly 40 years using Pentax, once shined Cartier-Bresson's shoes, yaddayaddayadda) and finished by once again deriding the lens.

Directly beneath this review, is a review showing in-focus shots

So my questions is, when you acquire a piece of equipment that fails to perform satisfactorily, do you review it anyway, or do you consider that perhaps it is defective and you look to get a better copy?

**sergysergy** · 10-24-2014, 09:43 AM - **1 Like**

It happens when you check the marketplace or places like amazon.
You go to the bad reviews and some of them are "the item was damaged" or "I had a bad copy". If that's the case do not give the product 1 star because it is misleading. True that your copy might be a 0 but return it and write a "fair" one if possible.

aleonx3 · 10-24-2014, 09:45 AM - **2 Likes**

Perhaps, dropping the outlier(s) before getting the average score would be the more accurate method, IMHO.

**luftfluss** · 10-24-2014, 09:54 AM

My own experience:

A couple of years ago I acquired a DA21. It would never focus to infinity, so I sent it to CRIS for repair. When I received the repaired lens, it would focus OK and was sharp in the center of the frame, but the edges were abominably soft. I sent it back to CRIS, but after examination they returned it and informed me that they could do nothing further. I just couldn't believe this was a representative example of the lens - I'd seen too many good pics with it. 10 months ago I acquired another DA21, and its been fine, clearly performing as it ought to. Now I have to get around to posting a review.......

AquaDome · 10-24-2014, 10:02 AM

A string of bad reviews can help you single-out a particular problem, as well as amplify public panic over a perceived problem.
I would prefer to know about a potential issue, even if it is a minor one, before purchasing
No matter where you go, you have to be wary of the Trolls.

ziscwg · 10-24-2014, 10:08 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by sergysergy

It happens when you check the marketplace or places like amazon.
You go to the bad reviews and some of them are "the item was damaged" or "I had a bad copy". If that's the case do not give the product 1 star because it is misleading. True that your copy might be a 0 but return it and write a "fair" one if possible.

I see that on Amazon too and comment that the reviewer should review the seller (not always Amazon) and not the product. I remember one reviewer that bought and mini hand pump that is designed to be used on if you get a flat to get you home. Well, he gave pump a 1 star because it would not inflate his tubeless mtb tire.

Talk about clueless. I'm sure he just did not want to spring for a real floor pump and hoped the $15 mini pump would work.

I wonder if I should review Lightroom and give it one star. It has a sharpening function. Well, I have plenty of action shots that are out of focus. It does not sharpen them to the tack sharp look i get when I can nail the focus. I guess Lightroom really sucks..................................................................................................sarcasm.

VisualDarkness · 10-24-2014, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by aleonx3

Perhaps, dropping the outlier(s) before getting the average score would be the more accurate method, IMHO.

Don't talk about outliers, I got a statistics exam soon. Though I agree, get rid of the extremes in both directions to get a better result.

aleonx3 · 10-24-2014, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by VisualDarkness

Don't talk about outliers, I got a statistics exam soon. Though I agree, get rid of the extremes in both directions to get a better result.

Sorry, I am wearing a statistician's hat (when you compile empirical data, don't include outliers).

**qblade** · 10-24-2014, 10:48 AM

Amazon reviewers can be all over the place. Some of them are just hilarious, but others...
I was looking at a Blu-Ray that I was planning on purchasing, and the 3rd review, which gave it 1 star, said in the title that the main character dies in the end.
WHAT!!?? What kind of a jerk has to post that in his review, regardless of whether or not he liked the movie? I reported his post with the hope that they'll take it down so he doesn't ruin the movie for any more people.

stevebrot · 10-24-2014, 12:12 PM

I review based on my experience and qualify my comments as such. I also attempt to provide a balanced review regardless of whether I was happy with the purchase. After all, I don't want to look TOO dumb for having bought the thing in the first place

A good recent example would be my review of the S-type focus screen from focusingscreen.com. It is a decent screen and I gave credit where credit is due for its positive attributes. Where it got marked down was for it not being compatible with the K-3 when ordered with etched AF area markings (gross underexposure below about f/3.5). I also marked it down based on extremely poor post-sales support from the manufacturer.

Did I rant? I don't think so, though I stand by my assessment for that screen/option/camera combination.

Steve

**Lowell Goudge** · 10-24-2014, 12:39 PM

don't sweat the reviews, they are all from people like ourselves, who occasionally will rant and rave about different things. Over the long run, a single bad review will be outweighed by proper ones.. As we have never come up with an agreed rating formula, you have to consider that this type of thing will happen.

personally, i believe no lens is likely to rate lower than 7 , and this includes a whole lot of absolute crap out there. Lernses that rate less than 7 are ones that i would never ever consider using. I have one such lens that I rated 5 when i bought it due to internal reflections that were the result of wrong material finish on interior parts, i re-rated it after i painted the offending parts flat black.

Moropo · 10-24-2014, 12:43 PM

I do not agree with your thinking. Imagine the following scenario: an item is produced and the amount of defective items is higher than it should be. In other words, buyers of such item are receiving a defective item in a higher rate than usual. This is a problem that I as a potential buyer would want to be aware. With your logic none of the reviews should mention such defective items, ie, only perfectly working items should be reviewed. Kind of defeats the purpose.

- my opinion

narual · 10-24-2014, 12:48 PM - **3 Likes**

I just get nuts when I see bad reviews that have nothing to do with the product. "I'm giving this 1 star because the seller shipped it a week late."

But getting a bad copy of a lens and reviewing it as bad? What's wrong with that, really? You review the product you have, not the product someone else has. If I have a lawnmower that continually shuts off after it runs for a few minutes, should I give it a good review because my neighbor with the same mower has no problems with his? No. I *should* give it a bad review, contact the manufacturer or seller, express concern that I've received a lemon based on other reviews of the product, be offered an exchange, get a new one, and update my review to reflect the improved or continued poor condition.

Now, a smart reviewer might include a phrase like "My copy of this ______"... but a smart *reader* of reviews should know that that phrase should be automatically applied.

normhead · 10-24-2014, 12:57 PM

Bad reviews should be included. I want to know what the guy's problem was. But, I'm assuming that I'm going to preserver until I get a good lens. So I also want to know what I can expect if I get good one, without the bias of bad copies thrown in.

A case in point is the Tamron 70-200. 3 bad copies out of 33 reviews, a 10% failure rate. But 100% of the people who got good copies love the lens. I want to know about the 3 bad copies, but I also want everyone else's rating in a different category.

narual · 10-24-2014, 01:06 PM

That said, the pentax forums lens database should probably post a curve-adjusted score of the lenses alongside the current scores. There's almost nothing on there rated below a 7. Of the lenses made by Pentax/Takumar, there are 9 that rate 6-6.99, 3 that rate 5-5.99, 1 that rates 4.54, 1 that rates 3.0, and nothing below that. There aren't even very many rated in the 7-7.99 range.. I think it was around 30-35.

The third party lenses have a few more with lower reviews (but often those are a single reviewer's opinion). The worst I could find was a 55mm X-Ray lens that someone glued a mount to and then tried to use on their camera... and even that got a 2.0.

On Amazon, 3.5 out of 5 stars means the product is probably pretty good. The equivalent rating here is is basically "these aren't *quite* junk"

10-24-2014, 09:36 AM	#1
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,619	Rant: Reviews of defective equipment Recently some errr, individual posted a review of the Pentax-Q 03 Fisheye... he awarded the lens a score of 1 because he claimed that nothing was "within an acceptable focus". Then he went on to give his creds as a photographer (nearly 40 years using Pentax, once shined Cartier-Bresson's shoes, yaddayaddayadda) and finished by once again deriding the lens. Directly beneath this review, is a review showing in-focus shots So my questions is, when you acquire a piece of equipment that fails to perform satisfactorily, do you review it anyway, or do you consider that perhaps it is defective and you look to get a better copy?

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10-24-2014, 09:43 AM - 1 Like	#2
sergysergy Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,170	It happens when you check the marketplace or places like amazon. You go to the bad reviews and some of them are "the item was damaged" or "I had a bad copy". If that's the case do not give the product 1 star because it is misleading. True that your copy might be a 0 but return it and write a "fair" one if possible.

10-24-2014, 09:45 AM - 2 Likes	#3
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Perhaps, dropping the outlier(s) before getting the average score would be the more accurate method, IMHO.

10-24-2014, 09:54 AM	#4
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,619 Original Poster	My own experience: A couple of years ago I acquired a DA21. It would never focus to infinity, so I sent it to CRIS for repair. When I received the repaired lens, it would focus OK and was sharp in the center of the frame, but the edges were abominably soft. I sent it back to CRIS, but after examination they returned it and informed me that they could do nothing further. I just couldn't believe this was a representative example of the lens - I'd seen too many good pics with it. 10 months ago I acquired another DA21, and its been fine, clearly performing as it ought to. Now I have to get around to posting a review.......

10-24-2014, 10:02 AM	#5
AquaDome Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: New Carlisle, IN Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,475	A string of bad reviews can help you single-out a particular problem, as well as amplify public panic over a perceived problem. I would prefer to know about a potential issue, even if it is a minor one, before purchasing No matter where you go, you have to be wary of the Trolls.

10-24-2014, 10:08 AM - 1 Like	#6
ziscwg Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 110	Originally posted by sergysergy It happens when you check the marketplace or places like amazon. You go to the bad reviews and some of them are "the item was damaged" or "I had a bad copy". If that's the case do not give the product 1 star because it is misleading. True that your copy might be a 0 but return it and write a "fair" one if possible. I see that on Amazon too and comment that the reviewer should review the seller (not always Amazon) and not the product. I remember one reviewer that bought and mini hand pump that is designed to be used on if you get a flat to get you home. Well, he gave pump a 1 star because it would not inflate his tubeless mtb tire. Talk about clueless. I'm sure he just did not want to spring for a real floor pump and hoped the $15 mini pump would work. I wonder if I should review Lightroom and give it one star. It has a sharpening function. Well, I have plenty of action shots that are out of focus. It does not sharpen them to the tack sharp look i get when I can nail the focus. I guess Lightroom really sucks..................................................................................................sarcasm.

10-24-2014, 10:12 AM	#7
VisualDarkness Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Uppsala, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,439	Originally posted by aleonx3 Perhaps, dropping the outlier(s) before getting the average score would be the more accurate method, IMHO. Don't talk about outliers, I got a statistics exam soon. Though I agree, get rid of the extremes in both directions to get a better result.

10-24-2014, 10:21 AM	#8
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by VisualDarkness Don't talk about outliers, I got a statistics exam soon. Though I agree, get rid of the extremes in both directions to get a better result. Sorry, I am wearing a statistician's hat (when you compile empirical data, don't include outliers).

10-24-2014, 10:48 AM	#9
qblade Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Edina, MN Posts: 258	Amazon reviewers can be all over the place. Some of them are just hilarious, but others... I was looking at a Blu-Ray that I was planning on purchasing, and the 3rd review, which gave it 1 star, said in the title that the main character dies in the end. WHAT!!?? What kind of a jerk has to post that in his review, regardless of whether or not he liked the movie? I reported his post with the hope that they'll take it down so he doesn't ruin the movie for any more people.

10-24-2014, 12:12 PM	#10
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	I review based on my experience and qualify my comments as such. I also attempt to provide a balanced review regardless of whether I was happy with the purchase. After all, I don't want to look TOO dumb for having bought the thing in the first place A good recent example would be my review of the S-type focus screen from focusingscreen.com. It is a decent screen and I gave credit where credit is due for its positive attributes. Where it got marked down was for it not being compatible with the K-3 when ordered with etched AF area markings (gross underexposure below about f/3.5). I also marked it down based on extremely poor post-sales support from the manufacturer. Did I rant? I don't think so, though I stand by my assessment for that screen/option/camera combination. Steve

10-24-2014, 12:39 PM	#11
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,888	don't sweat the reviews, they are all from people like ourselves, who occasionally will rant and rave about different things. Over the long run, a single bad review will be outweighed by proper ones.. As we have never come up with an agreed rating formula, you have to consider that this type of thing will happen. personally, i believe no lens is likely to rate lower than 7 , and this includes a whole lot of absolute crap out there. Lernses that rate less than 7 are ones that i would never ever consider using. I have one such lens that I rated 5 when i bought it due to internal reflections that were the result of wrong material finish on interior parts, i re-rated it after i painted the offending parts flat black.

10-24-2014, 12:43 PM	#12
Moropo Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 131	I do not agree with your thinking. Imagine the following scenario: an item is produced and the amount of defective items is higher than it should be. In other words, buyers of such item are receiving a defective item in a higher rate than usual. This is a problem that I as a potential buyer would want to be aware. With your logic none of the reviews should mention such defective items, ie, only perfectly working items should be reviewed. Kind of defeats the purpose. - my opinion

10-24-2014, 12:48 PM - 3 Likes	#13
narual Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South Bend (Notre Dame), Indiana Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,988	I just get nuts when I see bad reviews that have nothing to do with the product. "I'm giving this 1 star because the seller shipped it a week late." But getting a bad copy of a lens and reviewing it as bad? What's wrong with that, really? You review the product you have, not the product someone else has. If I have a lawnmower that continually shuts off after it runs for a few minutes, should I give it a good review because my neighbor with the same mower has no problems with his? No. I should give it a bad review, contact the manufacturer or seller, express concern that I've received a lemon based on other reviews of the product, be offered an exchange, get a new one, and update my review to reflect the improved or continued poor condition. Now, a smart reviewer might include a phrase like "My copy of this ______"... but a smart reader of reviews should know that that phrase should be automatically applied.

10-24-2014, 12:57 PM	#14
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Bad reviews should be included. I want to know what the guy's problem was. But, I'm assuming that I'm going to preserver until I get a good lens. So I also want to know what I can expect if I get good one, without the bias of bad copies thrown in. A case in point is the Tamron 70-200. 3 bad copies out of 33 reviews, a 10% failure rate. But 100% of the people who got good copies love the lens. I want to know about the 3 bad copies, but I also want everyone else's rating in a different category.

10-24-2014, 01:06 PM	#15
narual Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South Bend (Notre Dame), Indiana Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,988	That said, the pentax forums lens database should probably post a curve-adjusted score of the lenses alongside the current scores. There's almost nothing on there rated below a 7. Of the lenses made by Pentax/Takumar, there are 9 that rate 6-6.99, 3 that rate 5-5.99, 1 that rates 4.54, 1 that rates 3.0, and nothing below that. There aren't even very many rated in the 7-7.99 range.. I think it was around 30-35. The third party lenses have a few more with lower reviews (but often those are a single reviewer's opinion). The worst I could find was a 55mm X-Ray lens that someone glued a mount to and then tried to use on their camera... and even that got a 2.0. On Amazon, 3.5 out of 5 stars means the product is probably pretty good. The equivalent rating here is is basically "these aren't quite junk"