[MadMathMind]

In a conversation with a police officer he stated that trespassing is defined as "Entering onto a property with the intent of doing harm". Then it would have to be proven in court that said person was on the property for that reason.

So you can just waltz over to someone's private lake and fish and that would not be trespassing? Or sleep in someone's barn? Those are definite instances of trespassing and there is no intent to harm anyone in either action. Even entering someone's home wouldn't qualify as trespassing under that definition, so long as the intent were only to rob or perhaps watch TV. ("Harm" refers only to person, not property.) That definition seems overly restrictive. Perhaps that's the criteria they use when they decide whether to arrest or prosecute?

---------- Post added 01-23-15 at 10:39 PM ----------

"Signs are not always a good idea, as far as liability goes."

In town and out in the country things differ; and as I mentioned laws in one state may not be applicable in another state. Here in the open country; if your land is not posted, hunters, etc., may legally access it. Again, here; if the land is posted, it prevents the owner from being liable for injuries for those that have not received permission to be on the land. In this state, you actually don't need signs to notify hunters that it's private property; you simply apply orange paint to trees, etc.; this serves the same purpose as a "no hunting" sign.

I was thinking more of "Beware of Dog" signs. If you post such a sign, a lawyer may argue that you were admitting your dog was dangerous. If you don't post it, he may argue that you created an unreasonable risk to anyone who wanted to have complete disregard for someone else's belongs and jump your fence the public. You lose either way. Best to make sure your dog doesn't bite anyone...

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Last edited by MadMathMind; 01-23-2015 at 09:46 PM.

[sherrvonne]

So you can just waltz over to someone's private lake and fish and that would not be trespassing? Or sleep in someone's barn? Those are definite instances of trespassing and there intent to harm anyone in either action. Even entering someone's home wouldn't qualify as trespassing under that definition, so long as the intent were only to rob or perhaps watch TV. ("Harm" refers only to person, not property.) That definition seems overly restrictive. Perhaps that's the criteria they use when they decide whether to arrest or prosecute?

---------- Post added 01-23-15 at 10:39 PM ----------



I was thinking more of "Beware of Dog" signs. If you post such a sign, a lawyer may argue that you were admitting your dog was dangerous. If you don't post it, he may argue that you created an unreasonable risk to anyone who wanted to have complete disregard for someone else's belongs and jump your fence the public. You lose either way. Best to make sure your dog doesn't bite anyone...

That no trespassing definition is probably used more for salesmen/solicitors, utility persons, people that actually have a reason for knocking on your door. Sheesh I'd hate to come home to stranger watching my TV. Then they would wonder why they were dumb enough to get trapped in my home with a intense ChiWeinie dog and a Blue Heeler/Rat Terrier mix.

[MadMathMind]

That no trespassing definition is probably used more for salesmen/solicitors, utility persons, people that actually have a reason for knocking on your door. Sheesh I'd hate to come home to stranger watching my TV. Then they would wonder why they were dumb enough to get trapped in my home with a intense ChiWeinie dog and a Blue Heeler/Rat Terrier mix.

It depends on which part of the property has been entered. You can't have someone hauled away for ringing your doorbell. That's true even when they don't have a valid reason to be there (no, trying to sell you something without your invitation is *not* a valid reason!). That would not be trespassing, even though they are on your property without permission, at least if they use the front door. But going around the back to knock on your window...that would be different.

Delivery men, meter readers, etc. may also access normally closed parts of the property without issue. You can't have the FedEx man prosecuted if he goes into your backyard to put a package there when you are not home, for instance.

[promacjoe]

In a conversation with a police officer he stated that trespassing is defined as "Entering onto a property with the intent of doing harm".

First of all never take legal advice from a police officer. They are not lawyers. besides that, They have a good reason why they don't want to mess with certain matters, It's called paperwork. they have to file a report on everything. so they will sometimes purposely and knowingly mislead you about the law. Trespassing is encroaching on anyone's property without permission, A sign is preferable. But if there's a fence with a latched gate, that is all that is necessary, And if the gate is locked, and they damage the fence to gain entry, It can be considered breaking and entering. At least in my state. even if there is not a fence, if you feel threatened by the intruder, or if you feel that the intruder is trying to vandalize your property in some way, they can be arrested for trespassing. Even if they have not done any damage.

As far as being harmed, You can be harmed physically or financially. Vandalism of property is considered harming someone financially.

I suggest you look up the laws in your state/country, and see how your laws are written. And don't take legal advice from police officers. Technically they're not supposed to give it. They are supposed to ticket or arrest individuals based on their understanding of the law, Then turn it over to the lawyers/Judge.

[Gray]

She kept following me, yelling at me.

Interesting how the guilty can be simultaneously so aggressive, so stupid and so ugly when they get caught. A better person could have shown some maturity mixed with grace and humility, and simply left a note for the truck owner.

[csa]

[ they paint the fence posts purple]

This is why I mentioned laws will differ in other states. If someone in this state saw fence posts painted purple, we'd just think someone had a weird love of the color! People from other places would probably think the same about ours being topped off with flourescent orange paint!

[Gray]

The only experience I have had was my fault, a teenager walking on private property with a camera, a farm, and I was greeted by a guy holding a shot gun.

Come here to Sweden and you will be allowed to cross private property depending on the situation and farmers won't have shotguns to point at you.

I have a shotgun, and you don't have one If you don't get off, I'll blow your head off This land is private property."

Travelling in Oregon last May, I was taking photos with my trusty RX100II through the car's passenger window. Only later, inspecting the photos on my laptop did I discover this one...
Taken by fluke through the closed passenger window at 50 mph on Hwy 199 near Grants Pass, OR.

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Last edited by Gray; 01-23-2015 at 11:04 PM.

[csa]

Yeah, Mr. Smith & Mr. Wesson seem to get around.

[Sagitta]

That and if someone is really serious about no trespassing on their property they paint the fence posts purple and have multiple viewable signs posted. In a conversation with a police officer he stated that trespassing is defined as "Entering onto a property with the intent of doing harm". Then it would have to be proven in court that said person was on the property for that reason. Court would be unfun, so would being trampled by the giant Bull in the pasture. Lol, I stay out of those places but do travel the backroads for photos. LOL, The worst scenario for being by someone's property with a camera would be if they mistook you for the property tax appraiser person..

I've heard about the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is getting shot because someone thinks you're wildlife.

I can't find a link, but years ago there was a case in (I think) West Virginia where someone shot a photographer from a neighboring property to the one the trespassing photographer was on because he "mistook them for a coyote".

[Murfy]

[ they paint the fence posts purple]

This is why I mentioned laws will differ in other states. If someone in this state saw fence posts painted purple, we'd just think someone had a weird love of the color! People from other places would probably think the same about ours being topped off with flourescent orange paint!

In our state you need WRITTEN permission to hunt on someone's property. You download a form, and the property owner signs it and the hunter signs it. It needs to be a specific form from the state.

---------- Post added 01-24-15 at 10:32 AM ----------

I've heard about the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is getting shot because someone thinks you're wildlife.

I can't find a link, but years ago there was a case in (I think) West Virginia where someone shot a photographer from a neighboring property to the one the trespassing photographer was on because he "mistook them for a coyote".

it has happened here a lot, photographers are shot because hunters think they are deer. That is why I do not shot nature/wildlife/ whatever in hunting season. Bicyclists have been accidentally shot because they were mountain biking, even thought the state has said not to do it because you risk getting shot. (or hunters getting angry you are running off the deer and then retaliating - it has happened, with hidden wires and things to puncture tires on bike paths)

[MadMathMind]

Interesting how the guilty can be simultaneously so aggressive, so stupid and so ugly when they get caught. A better person could have shown some maturity mixed with grace and humility, and simply left a note for the truck owner.

It's a pretty common reaction, sadly. When someone does something dishonest...they're usually not afraid to engage in more dishonest behavior to get out of being caught in the first instance. In this case, it's not a surprise that the woman was willing to escalate to intimidation after attempting to hit-and-run. This sort of reaction made it really hard to punish cheaters properly when I taught at university. It turns out that kids who are willing to cheat on a test don't say "Aww, schucks! You got me!" when you bust them. You could catch them with fantastic evidence and the best you could do was give a score of 0; taking them before the university board would be a very time-consuming and very *ugly* affair. (Parents get involved...and some are so low-down that they hire PIs and lawyers to intimidate the professors.)

[Murfy]

First of all never take legal advice from a police officer. And don't take legal advice from police officers. Technically they're not supposed to give it. They are supposed to ticket or arrest individuals based on their understanding of the law, Then turn it over to the lawyers/Judge.

Yes, I have 2 incidents were police officers told me something very wrong. I have one that is a funny story that should be on a crazy talk show, but in the end the police officer 'legal advice' was very wrong. She interpreted the law to fit her 'wants' at the time. It is best to look up the laws in the state or ask a lawyer. Both bits of 'advice' were so off from what the law actually was it was quite scary.

[DeadJohn]

Yes, I have 2 incidents were police officers told me something very wrong. I have one that is a funny story that should be on a crazy talk show, but in the end the police officer 'legal advice' was very wrong. She interpreted the law to fit her 'wants' at the time. It is best to look up the laws in the state or ask a lawyer. Both bits of 'advice' were so off from what the law actually was it was quite scary.

The worst legal advice I ever heard from law enforcement was that photos of bridges in New York City were forbidden. I argued for a while and his arguments led to the crazy claim that wide-angle skyline shots of NYC in TV and movies are illegal. That wasn't from NYPD but a much smaller agency that only has jurisdiction over 9 toll bridges and tunnels. Their main job is to collect tolls and move disabled cars off the road.

[MadMathMind]

A bit of follow-up from someone who knows law much better than I:

The old common law rule was that any time you didn't have permission, you were trespassing, even if you didn't know that you were entering someone's property. These days, most jurisdictions require intent to find trespass (unintentional trespass may still count if it was negligent). Signs can help show that someone's trespass was intentional, but they're not going to be a legal requirement.

Entering with intent to harm could cross the line into criminal law (eg, burglary), as opposed to a tort. Not surprising that a police officer would conflate the two.

[Scorpio71GR]

Over the years I have had a few incidents nothing major though. I have experienced my share of nasty looks and comments. I just ignore them and move on. The most recent occurrence came while photographing an apple blossom tree in the spring. The owner came up and asked what I was photographing. I said the tree which he informed me was on his property. I however informed him the sidewalk I was photographing it from was not and moved on. Over the thirty plus years of taking photographs my experiences have been positive. Most people who have approached me have done so out of curiosity. I have even struck up some really great conversations this way. I will add this though, I have never gone onto someone else's property to take a photograph without permission. If the owner says no, then I simply move on. If I found some stranger wandering around on my property taking pictures I would be annoyed to. This has nothing to do with any laws but simple common courtesy and respect.