[reivax]

Hello,

I'm hoping that someone has some advice for me. Sometime during the next two weeks, the school that I work for would like for me to take the senior class portrait. Remember that picture? The one where they haul all of the seniors into a gym or onto a field and take a massive picture? I have never really shot anything like that, but I accepted because I thought it would be a cool way to both: 1) Give back to my school; 2) Learn something new.

I know I'll shoot with my K-3, but I have no idea what lens I should use. The school is pretty much giving me permission to do whatever I'd like (which is a good and a bad thing... haha). The class is over 700 students and there will be two pictures that I will take.

1) Inside a gym
2) At a football field

I have a Rokinon 8mm fisheye that is probably wide enough, but I'm wondering if that would be a good idea because of the fish-eye effect. My other option is using my Sigma 17-50 lens. Are there any other options I should consider?

My other question is, what aperture should I use? What about shutter speed? What is the highest ISO I should go with (they usually blow this picture up to at least poster size). I will be using a tripod to take the picture.

I am really excited and a little lost to do this so I'm hoping to get everyone's advice. As always, thank you so much in advance.

[IsaacT]

Go with ISO 100 so you get the best resolution possible. What I would do it to take your 17-50 and take vertical shots at 17mm across the frame and then stitch them together using photo merge in Photoshop. It is pretty simple actually, just try your best to stay on a solid horizontal line.

I recently did a stitched pano like that and it is like 10k by 4k pixels after cropping out what I wanted.

[reivax]

Sigma 10-20mm both aperture lenses are non fisheye.

I did consider that, but unfortunately, this is a volunteer (non paying) job so I can't really afford to go out and buy a lens for it. Thank you for the suggestion!

---------- Post added 01-29-15 at 01:32 PM ----------

Go with ISO 100 so you get the best resolution possible. What I would do it to take your 17-50 and take vertical shots at 17mm across the frame and then stitch them together using photo merge in Photoshop. It is pretty simple actually, just try your best to stay on a solid horizontal line.

I recently did a stitched pano like that and it is like 10k by 4k pixels after cropping out what I wanted.

Any tutorials on how to do this? It actually sounds pretty cool. My only concern with doing this is having 700 high school seniors be patient enough while I continue to re-position the camera. It does sound really cool though and I will definitely try it, but I do want to try to shoot without stitching just in case.

[jatrax]

I don't think the fish eye would be a good idea, though you might shoot it just for fun to see what it looks like. Might make a cool year book pic.

The real question is how much room you have to back up. In the gym I guess the kids are on the bleachers right? So go to the gym with the 17-50 put it on 50mm and see if you can shoot all the bleachers or as much of them as needed at that focal length. If not then you either need to back up or use a wider focal length. Out side you have more options I would think. But I would do the testing right now, not later.

Aperture, well how much depth of focus do you need? In the gym how many rows of seats will be filled? Measure that and then use a DOF calculator to see what aperture you need. Then you need a fast enough shutter speed to stop movement. I'm not sure what that would be someone with experience with that can help. I would start at 1/250th if I had to guess. And ISO follows from the aperture and speed. Without flash you might have to run the ISO up pretty high to keep the speed up. Also be aware of the gym lights, the White Balance might be wonky. Take a gray card and shoot some test shots.

Those kids are not going to be sitting still so I would think the speed needs to be right up there.

[Sandy Hancock]

It the football field you will have lots of light and have the luxury of being able to stand back as far as you want. Use your best lens at its best aperture. On a tripod. For sheer resolving power, and minimal distortion, I would probably opt for my DA*55 and set my tripod back as far as necessary.

In the gym you will likely need a wider lens, but surely not a fisheye. You might have to accept some distortion though. I would turn on every light in the gym, and use my DA*16-50 to frame the shot. If you have a good prime at that focal length, switch to that for the keepers.

A couple of radio-controlled flashes with big reflectors would be pretty helpful if you can run to it.

[mattb123]

The indoor one will probably be the hardest because of limited/poor light. I agree with trying a fisheye for fun, but also use a more traditional FOV.
Depending on how still you can get the kids I think you could go quite a bit slower than 1/250, but it really depends on how much they are moving.

The outdoor one should be easier if you can find good light. I've done big outdoor group shots from a balcony or rooftop. Try to avoid hard overhead light (like noon in the summer) but also try to find an angle where the faces are well lit. Go either all sun if it isn't too harsh or all shade if it is, part sun will be difficult to expose for and won't look as good.
Use a step ladder if you don't have a structure to get you up higher.

[reivax]

Go with ISO 100 so you get the best resolution possible. What I would do it to take your 17-50 and take vertical shots at 17mm across the frame and then stitch them together using photo merge in Photoshop. It is pretty simple actually, just try your best to stay on a solid horizontal line.

I recently did a stitched pano like that and it is like 10k by 4k pixels after cropping out what I wanted.

Wow! I just saw a video on using photo merge and wow! It is almost depressing to realize how much there is to know about photography and editing. So much to take in, so few lifetimes to try... I'm actually excited about trying it, but I'm still going to try to play it safe with a normal (non stitched) photo as well.

[Bob from Aus]

The best portrait will depend on how far back you can stand. Wider angle lenses will distort the kids in the corner. I would be aiming to use a 50mm lens. I wouldn't want to go below 35mm. However this may not be possible. This will require you to get some height so you may need a large step ladder - the school in theory will have a couple to change their light fittings. The issue you have the longer the lens, the higher you will need to be on a step ladder.

Think how you want to space out the kids. You will need to see every chin, kids won't know if you can or can't see the chins.

I hope you have an overcast day on the oval. A sunny day will be a nightmare of shadows. You may be best photographing into the sun if you can't control the shadows

Best of luck, tell us how you go and show us your result

[rrstuff]

I saw a topic like this some time ago and the conclusion was - use the biggest format available. People like to watch those group shots with noses pressed against the photo and look for their faces, or their friends. So for 700 people, I would recommend a panoramic camera (that's what the photog used during my college commencement , ca 1000 people) or at least a medium format.

Just think about it, 24 megapixels is some 4000x6000 pixels. With 700 segments that gives you (at most) 0.035 megapixel per person. Is 35000 pixels (180*180px) enough for a good photo of a face? Note that really it will be less, because you won't just fill the pictures with faces back-to-back. It will probably be more like 50%, so some 120x120px per face.

You will need more resolution. Photostitching could work, but you will need to make a few passes to make sure people in the middle don't move. If I absolutely had to stitch, I would split them to three groups and take three separate shots, and then combine them into one. But honestly, imo a panoramic camera is a way to go, just tell everyone to stand still.

I think the school should be willing to rent one and I can't believe that out of 700 parents a few wouldn't want to chip in $5 to get a good shot.

[sholtzma]

Well, I've taken a few shots of large groups, but not that large--maybe 100-200 at most. See my relatively successful example below. (But you can do better!) And I also shot some with a longer focal length to get shots of 1/3 chunks of the crowd, for stitching....

With a group of 700, you will need to plan carefully. Whatever you do, have a plan going into it. Nothing will cause students to start losing interest and turning away from the camera like a photographer who is taking too much time to get the shot(s). You can have some associates help you in advance by scouting the location with them sitting on the edges of where the photo will be, and you can take some practice shots. Even if you can't control lighting at that point, you can determine what focal length(s) you will need, what aperture for needed depth of field, where you will need to be positioned, etc. Whatever you do, take more than one shot of whatever group is in the viewfinder at a given time, and better yet, take more than two shots. But do it fairly quickly. Someone will be blinking; someone will be distracted; someone will be sneezing; etc.

If the football field has bleachers, I'd use those to create lines of people on different planes. You want to see all their faces (and chins, as was pointed out, not just eyes), and they need to be able to see you. If you need more lines (and more planes), put another line sitting on the ground in front of the first row of seats. If there are 10 rows of seats, that's only 70 people wide, which you can cover with a 28-70mm if can get back far enough. If you can't get back far enough (but you should, since you're on a field), you'll need a 12-24mm or something similar. That is without the need for stitching together photos. By the way, you may not be able to dictate how the group is organized, but if you have a say, then make the tallest group be at the back and getting progressively shorter towards the front row.

Lighting will depend. If you can't choose the date, you'll have to deal with whatever outside lighting you have that day (full sun, partial sun, cloudy). Hope, at that point, for cloudy, which eliminates almost all shadows and evens the light like a giant softbox. If you have sun (full or partial), you'll have to decide how best to minimize shadows and contrast. If the group is on bleachers, you may not be able to position them either facing the sun or away from the sun (depending on the orientation of the bleachers). That will be the most difficult. You could try introducing some extra light. If the field has good enough night lights, definitely try having them turned on; they might provide enough fill light to counter the effects of the sun.

I agree that the gym is likely to be more difficult than the field. But it depends on the size of the gym and, again, on the conditions. If the gym is big enough, and if there are bleachers (preferably on both sides), make sure the bleachers are set up, and then the same principles apply as on the field. Put line of people on different rows to create different planes. Heck, you might even be able to set up your camera on the other side of bleachers from the group, allowing you to shoot from the height of the middle of the group (without a ladder). For that matter, you could try that approach on the field too, if can shoot from the opposite bleachers. All lights in the gym should be on (and sometimes gym lights need quite awhile to warm up and reach full illumination); have the lights turned on at least 1/2 hour in advance. If you have no opposite bleachers to shoot from, then have them set up a ladder for you and a table for your tripod and camera. You want to minimize the degree to which you are shooting in an upward direction.

Best of luck.

[Sagitta]

Is there any kind of stipulation as to the photo needing to be of normal dimensions?

If not, I'd line the kids up in a group three or four deep along the football field, and actually physically move the camera.

Set the camera up at one end, snap the shot, move 'downstream' and shoot the next shot, move downstream to the next group, snap that shot, etc until you have all 700 kids done.

The resulting pano would be a true pano (ie, short and wide), but you'd at least be able to get everyone in at a decent enough size to be identifiable.

The tricky part would be insuring that you have your camera set up evenly for each spot (premarking a location for the tripod's legs to sit would be a good idea here).

[DeadJohn]

Do not depend solely on a photo merge. If you pan incorrectly and leave a gap in people or make another mistake - and that's a real risk if you don't have a lot of experience doing it - then you have nothing.

Assuming you can't move back far enough to fit everything with your 17-50, start with the 8mm fisheye. Then switch to the 17-50 and take enough images to try stitching. If the crowd gets impatient and leaves in the middle or you make mistakes, you still have the 8mm shots as a backup.

[interested_observer]

I think you are going to have to stitch. You can use Microsoft ICE - its a free download, and they have a video on using it. Basically drag all the images (jpg or tiff) into the utility and it automagically does the rest. It really is pretty easy.

• Image Composite Editor (ICE)

Googling "photographing very large groups" brings up a good set of links on the topic. Lots of pointers and some videos.... The first link is the best - as it addresses VERY large groups, such as yours. Excellent video overview too...

• https://fstoppers.com/strobe-light/how-pose-and-photograph-huge-group-shot-t...ds-people-9539
• lighting - How to take photos of large groups (over 100 people)? - Photography Stack Exchange
• How to Take Great Group Photos - Digital Photography School

I would think one of the most difficult aspects is to figure out how to arrange the "group", which will define the space that you will need and also indicate the number of frames that need to be shot for stitching. You can use a photographer's calculator to figure out how far back to setup, and the size of the individual frames - i.e., the amount of space that the lens will be able to see based on the focal length. Scroll on down to the "Dimensional Field of View Calculator".

• http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm

I would think that some location like the bleachers at the football stadium would work pretty well. Select a side for the time and location of the sun. You can also run some test shots with out anyone there, or get your family involved or a small group to figure out spacing and everything. With the empty shots, you can also practice on stitching them all together. You may need some elevation. The band should probably have a "portable" structure that you can use, to get up off of ground level.

With a group of 700 high school students, you are going to get a few jerks that will turn around or do something stupid. If you can keep it down to 1% declare victory.

That should get you started.

[IsaacT]

When I did my panorama, I took about 23 photos along 180 degrees at 16mm each. I purposely overlapped, and due to the relatively short shutter speed I could use handheld, combined with fast fps, I had no issues going through and picking a final set that offered full coverage. But definitely do a couple of things. The benefit though, is that you get a LOT of pixels to work with so if they decide to print large, it doesn't look bad.

[btnapa]

Go with ISO 100 so you get the best resolution possible. What I would do it to take your 17-50 and take vertical shots at 17mm across the frame and then stitch them together using photo merge in Photoshop. It is pretty simple actually, just try your best to stay on a solid horizontal line.

I recently did a stitched pano like that and it is like 10k by 4k pixels after cropping out what I wanted.

I agree with IssacT's approach. I would shoot at 100 ISO if possible. I do pano images a lot and use the stitching technique almost exclusively.

Your challenge is lighting the people properly. If you can, use multiple flashes pointing at different segments of your pano. If you do not have multiple flashes, then move your one flash at the segment of the crowd for that particular shot. Make sure to announce that for the duration of the pano shots everyone needs to stay still so when comes stitching time you do not have people move at the seam lines. It is a challenge but it is perfectly doable.

Although you have natural light outside, I would still use a flash to fill the shadows.

You need to go out and do a trial run of your set up minus the people. Bring it back to your computer and try the stitch to make sure you have the angles and the coverage correctly. It is perhaps a one shot deal so the more you prepare the less you have to guess and fix later.

Your 17-50 should be more than adequate. I would avoid the fisheye look at all costs due to the look and the fact that even stitched it is going to look funny.

For a large group like this even a medium format does not have enough resolution for a single shot. I am not sure but I am guessing that in the old days they used a pano film camera to accomplish the task.

Good luck.