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03-26-2015, 05:14 AM   #1
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Sunny 16 rule hit the APS-C limit

According to the sunny 16 rule, we should have 1/100 s shutter time, at aperture f/16, ISO 100, at fully sunny conditions.
Now, in worst case cloudy condition, we should increase exposure by 4 stops:
- either open aperture to f4
- increase iso to 800

If we consider the latest APS-C high iso perf, 800 is stil good enough.

Now, still in cloudy conditions, imagine you shoot at 500mm FF equ. focal lenght, you need to increase shutter speed to 1/500 s. , then if the lens has f/4 max aperture, you are limited because then at f/4, iso 1600 is needed.

While the K-5 still perform at 1600 iso, the K-3 has already is beyond its limit. You need a full frame then.

03-26-2015, 05:17 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You need a full frame then.
Buy one... problem solved .
03-26-2015, 05:20 AM   #3
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The K-3 is not beyond its limit at ISO 1600.
03-26-2015, 05:21 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
While the K-5 still perform at 1600 iso, the K-3 has already is beyond its limit.


I don't get it... Why should K-5 perform well and K-3 be beyond limit?

03-26-2015, 05:27 AM - 1 Like   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
I don't get it... Why should K-5 perform well and K-3 be beyond limit?
because 3<5 simple as that

serious answer: I think biz engineer is referring to the first tests of the k-3 which mentioned that the high iso performance is lower than that of the k-5 (II) but the difference is negligible in the real world.
03-26-2015, 05:33 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by gwboes Quote
because 3<5 simple as that

serious answer: I think biz engineer is referring to the first tests of the k-3 which mentioned that the high iso performance is lower than that of the k-5 (II) but the difference is negligible in the real world.


OK... theory... Can't say a word about K-5 (zero experience). I can only compare performance of K-3 and K-7. And while ISO800 is a real max. for K-7, K-3 performs well when ISO increased to 6400 or even 12800.


So IMHO couple of shots should be added to support the biz-engineer's statement.
03-26-2015, 05:38 AM   #7
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It's true, once I got up to ISO 8000, all the details on the clock in my linked shot blurred away: https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8579/16065383021_e1d91337e8_o.jpg

(no wait, I can still make out the hair that are like a mm long)

03-26-2015, 05:45 AM - 5 Likes   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
According to the sunny 16 rule, we should have 1/100 s shutter time, at aperture f/16, ISO 100, at fully sunny conditions.
Now, in worst case cloudy condition, we should increase exposure by 4 stops:
- either open aperture to f4
- increase iso to 800

If we consider the latest APS-C high iso perf, 800 is stil good enough.

Now, still in cloudy conditions, imagine you shoot at 500mm FF equ. focal lenght, you need to increase shutter speed to 1/500 s. , then if the lens has f/4 max aperture, you are limited because then at f/4, iso 1600 is needed.

While the K-5 still perform at 1600 iso, the K-3 has already is beyond its limit. You need a full frame then.
Just another person making up ridiculous situations with no basis in reality, because they don't shoot enough.

But just to answer your theoretical problem... to match the APS-c depth of field with the FF you need shrink your aperture one stop, so you can't take the image with an FF either, unless you're willing to live with narrower DoF.

Stopping down the FF to achieve the same DoF eliminates both the noise and ISO difference and also equalizes the "total light" conjecture.

QuoteQuote:
Now, still in cloudy conditions, imagine you shoot at 500mm FF equ. focal lenght, you need to increase shutter speed to 1/500 s. , then if the lens has f/4 max aperture, you are limited because then at f/4, iso 1600 is needed.
On APS-c you simply go to a 300mm ƒ2.8 lens and you get the same field of view, DoF, field of view, total light and ISO and noise.. To match 500 APS-c on FF, you're going to need about 800mm on FF. How do you miss these things, if you aren't doing it intentionally?

The basic flaw in this type of thinking and it doesn't matter whether you're talking total light or any of the other imagined benefits of FF, is, they always allow the FF image to have less DoF. If you keep the DoF constant there is no advantage, unless you are shooting for extremely narrow DoF. Narrow DoF is an interesting effect, but not everyone is enamoured with it, enough to think what you can achieve with APS-c is in some way insufficient.

We've refuted this type of argument so many times it's disappointing to still be dealing with it.

Is there a website somewhere "100 false arguments to try and convince APS-c shooters they need a full frame?" to help salesmen increase their commissions? Where does this endless stream of slight of hand type information come from?

Last edited by normhead; 03-26-2015 at 06:27 AM.
03-26-2015, 05:48 AM   #9
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Depends on the light there is no set rule for noise vs iso, in bright sun 4000 is very clean but
in low light can be noisy.
The old rules no longer apply the same way with digital, even F stops should be eliminated and replaced with another
more appropriate measure such as field depth as used in video.
Eg. a linear aperture lens with an EVF showing real time is using the sensors capability without crippling it by setting
artificial Stops.
The limits are not defined by the sensor size but by the decision of the photographer.
PS Best to not read too many reviews or data this is Art not tech...
03-26-2015, 06:07 AM   #10
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I confess I'm astonished to hear that Sunny 16 doesn't work anymore, since I use it almost every day to shoot APS-C digital and 35mm film. I double check with my light meter when I'm not 100% sure, but most of the time it's Sunny 16 all the way.

Maybe the solution is to go by experience instead of theory. "Experience, though noon auctoritee / Were in this world, were right ynogh to me." (Chaucer)

03-26-2015, 06:39 AM - 1 Like   #11
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So the premise of this thread is to say that a full frame digital camera has 1 stop of ISO performance advantage?



In related news, water is still wet.
03-26-2015, 06:44 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
So the premise of this thread is to say that a full frame digital camera has 1 stop of ISO performance advantage?



In related news, water is still wet.
Yes, one stop advantage, if you don't take into account DoF, FoV, etc., because to match the DoF, you have to stop the FF down a stop, negating the advantage. You can shoot at one stop higher ISO on APS-c. The ISO advantage is only real if you are shooting in a situation where narrow DoF is preferable.

When you consider the 2 stop advantage SR gives you, FF is at a serious disadvantage, at least until the Pentax FF DSLR with SR comes out. I know from shooting beside D810 shooters, no SR is a big deal, especially with longer lenses. You pretty much have to buy VR lenses and toss your old stuff to keep up with APS-c. Meanwhile I still shoot with my old A-400 I paid $500 for.

Last edited by normhead; 03-26-2015 at 06:52 AM.
03-26-2015, 06:52 AM   #13
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Apologize. I use the Sunny 16 rules and change in aperture and shutter speed to explore what is doable in reasonable lighting situations. For example, shooting indoor horse event with light coming from covered roof (so, I made the assumption of worst case Sunny rule). Lenses Tamron 70-200 f2.8, Pentax 300 f4. Sorry, I don't have a 300 f2.8 from Pentax. With K-5 at f3.5 I already at max, iso 1600/3200 , IQ was not so good.

---------- Post added 03-26-15 at 02:57 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
So the premise of this thread is to say that a full frame digital camera has 1 stop of ISO performance advantage?



In related news, water is still wet.
Not really, I was thinking about what a [camera iso + lens aperture] should cover most common lighting situations as described by sunny 16 rule.
So I was finding out that in most situation my K-5 and K-3 and lenses were good enough to cover situation of sunny 16 rule.
Lets count the number of stop for a good zoom lens, from f16 (diffraction kicks in) to f4 (sharpness decreases below f4) => 5 stops,
If the light is low (cloudy), I use f4, then I have to compensate with slower shutter speed, and if I can't because of the long focal length I use, then I have to compensate with 5 stops of ISO from 100 to 1600 (5 stops). I'd prefer to increase ISO by only 4 stops , because at ISO 800 , perf is still pretty good. So I'm kind of getting into the limit of the camera system. Yeah , if I have a 300 f2.8 lens, the APS-C system is still pretty good.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 03-26-2015 at 07:07 AM.
03-26-2015, 07:03 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Apologize. I use the Sunny 16 rules and change in aperture and shutter speed to explore what is doable in reasonable lighting situations. For example, shooting indoor horse event with light coming from covered roof (so, I made the assumption of worst case Sunny rule). Lenses Tamron 70-200 f2.8, Pentax 300 f4. Sorry, I don't have a 300 f2.8 from Pentax. With K-5 at f3.5 I already at max, iso 1600/3200 , IQ was not so good.
OK, now that's understandable... but you have to realize, to match your 300 ƒ4 in an FF, you're going to have to go to 500mm ƒ5.6 FF. MY guess is, unless you are going to pay over $10,000 dollars for your lens ( Or get a Sigma 500 4.5 for around $5,000) you're probably going to be shooting something like a 6.3 lens. SO to get the same field of view, going FF isn't going to help you unless you spend the big bucks, because you can't get as fast an aperture. I've shot beside guys shooting 600 mm ƒ4 Nikons, while I shot my A-400 ƒ5.6 and results were very similar. Except my lens cost $500 and their cost $12,000, and weighed a fraction of what theirs weighed. Personally I tend to shoot lower ISO's and shutter speeds in such environments, you get many shots ruined by motion blur, but when you do get one, it's worth keeping. With a K-5 you can actually underexpose a stop and then rescue the shadows as well. Indoors there's lots of room in the Dynamic Range, and your contrast will have more punch, slightly under-exposed as compared to an even exposure. Use your histogram to expose to the left, using the EV +/- dial to move the histogram, keep the curve to the left, try and leave the right side of the histogram empty. You should be able to improve on what you got shooting at a higher ISO. or at least equal it, with a higher shutter speed.
03-26-2015, 07:11 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
With a K-5 you can actually underexpose a stop and then rescue the shadows as well.
Do you think there is a difference between underexposing by 1 EV or increasing the ISO ? I've not tried this recently.
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