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03-01-2016, 08:23 AM - 5 Likes   #16
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All fine and dandy, but having taught photography... I see "If I post a picture, I'd rather have a critique from my fellow photographer community rather than a series of likes and dislikes." and I think. Ya, you want me to do for free what I used to get paid for. From my perspective, a "like" is a fast easy way of providing feedback that doesn't involve me having to analyze anything. You guys are sounding like a bunch of attention seekers here. You want more of the time of your fellow shooters. Well with the number of images posted on this forum every day, that isn't even possible. There isn't enough time in the day to leave meaningful comment on each one. Like's are an appropriate "passing glance" type thing. If you want a critique there's the critique forum.

And honestly when you teach, it is so often that you struggle to come up with an appropriate comment, it really can be work. It is so often there is something just a little bit off that you can't quite put your finger on. It's not something everyone is good at. It's talent in ti's own right.

"Likes" are also a simple "thank you for posting that picture, it meant something to me". That is a valid statement, and I can't figure out for the life of me why people would think that isn't a valid thing to do. Maybe it's just that old selfish thing, "never give positive feedback" thing some people have. There are lots of folks out there who've never said a kind thing to anyone in their lives... I'm sure the anti-like thing is just right up their alley.

Interesting that some wish to cancel "likes" with negative feedback. Giving voice to those who find it really hard to not go negative every chance they get. Sad thing is, it's a given, most people don't think much of your work, that goes without saying. If they didn't "like " it, it either didn't move them, or they hated it and are just being polite. Everyone thinks that. The fact that someone even takes the time to click a like button means something. You can say you don't like an image, just by not clicking the like button. The vast majority of people don't like anything you do... so it's meaningful when somebody does. I don't care if they are a photographer or a bum using the computer at the library amusing themselves while keeping out of the cold during the winter. They're all worthwhile people.. The sole judge of your work should never be just other photographers.

First thing you learn as a basketball coach... when a kid learns a new skill and successfully complete a new drill for the first time, you go over to him and say "good job.' When he comes off the floor after good minutes on the floor, not whether or not he scored, but if he did his job and did it well, you go over and say "good job." You do it even if you're in the middle of something else. That is one of the most important aspects of coaching. Likes are kind of like saying "good job". IF you coach long, you quickly understand, if you stop doing it and you lose your team. They can't continue on just positive criticism. If you criticize every time they here your voice they start to stop listening. They just brace for the onslaught.

I know all you guys are above all that, are totally self dependant and don't need outside encouragement. I just don't see many examples of that in the real world. I don't see a lot of examples of people improving through criticism. I see lots of examples of people improving because they are praised when they get it right. Criticism has a place in the world, but so do likes. And I'm certainly not going to get all snobby about where they come from.

What I hear when i here a lot of these criticisms of systems like the "likes " is the desire to define who is important to you. The artist community thing. And that's cool as well. I'm sure that can be a valuable thing. A group of artists with a similar vision working on how to get their unique perspective across should be a wonderful thing. There will always be this self created conflict between those who fancy themselves to be some kind of purists, and the general population. And sometimes the general population comes around and decides the purist was really on to something. Greatness is often a result of such separation. I just don't see a lot of working groups who might fall into that category. I think a lot more people imagine they are a part of self supporting cutting edge group than actually are. Most are just cliques, with rules that allow themselves to feel special while proving that everyone else sucks.

I'd outlaw cliques before I'd outlaw "likes" but then every now and then you have one like Canada's "group of seven" painters, who are really on to something. It's not like they have absolutely no redeeming social importance. But so does saying "good job".


Last edited by normhead; 03-01-2016 at 08:59 AM.
03-01-2016, 08:29 AM   #17
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Suppose Heinrich Himmler took an amazing photo of his German Shepherd leaping into the air to catch a ball, and *just* as the dog lept a jet fighter came into view and in the photo you'd swear the dog was actually leaping to bite the jet... amazing photo, yes? Would you vote for it in a photo competition?
03-01-2016, 08:46 AM - 3 Likes   #18
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normhead, I think you're misinterpreting my statement. "If I post a picture, I'd rather have a critique from my fellow photographer community rather than a series of likes and dislikes."

I'm simply stating that a critique has more meaning than a "like". If your time and critique deserves compensation, then don't post a critique; a "like" or "dislike" is appropriate and very much so welcomed.


I think I understand what you're trying to say in regards to your "Good Job" sports coach analogy... I've played soccer competitively for 15 years and helping with coaching and refereeing. I've seen far too often the standard answer applies, "Good Job"; even if the player knew they screwed up or didn't do a good job. Coming from an athlete, again I'd rather hear criticism from the coach, "Look for that through ball next time; don't be afraid to shoot from outside; you're faster than that guy - win the 50/50 ball" These points of criticism do not need to be harsh or an 'onslaught' as you say. Constructive criticism.
This idea applies to many aspects of life. In this thread, photography and contests in particular.

If my photo means something to you and you want to post a like, that's awesome and I thank you for the acknowledgement.
If you are just hitting like because you want me to hit like back, no - I'm not cool with that.
If you just hit like because some popular figure also liked my photo, no - Again not cool with that.
If a photo really means something to you and you want to "like" it publicly, most of the time I'd assume you'd have no problem commenting on what you liked about it.
I have given out many "likes" on this forum, and each one I post a comment. Whether it's direct to the OP or a public comment, I always state what I liked about it; isn't that the point of all this anyways?

Sorry if I offend anyone in my post, I just an stating my personal opinion and do not mean to start tension between anyone.

-Logan
03-01-2016, 09:08 AM   #19
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QuoteQuote:
I've seen far too often the standard answer applies, "Good Job"; even if the player knew they screwed up or didn't do a good job.
And too often I've seen in basketball or football, where a player makes a great play,blocking or passing to someone else who basically does nothing but not screw up and scores, and the guy who scores is mobbed while the guy who actually made the play is walking off by himself. Good coaches run out and congratulate the guy who made the play, not necessarily the guy who scores. After 25 years of coaching, all i can say, is maybe you've seen guys congratulated for screwing up, coaches definitely have to have a feel for what they have to do to keep their guys working, and some guys are so deflated by criticism of any kind you constantly have to build them up. SO, I've seen what you've seen, I just don't have the same perspective on it you do. It's all about management skills.

If you were on my staff, you'd be finding ways to motivate that didn't involve claiming they'd done a good job when they screwed up. In fact on one of my basketball teams, you'd know exactly what the situation was, because you'd be sitting on the bench until I had a chance to address the issue with you. At the level I coached, it was more important to have an average player doing the right thing than it was to have a superstar doing his or her own thing.


Last edited by normhead; 03-01-2016 at 09:13 AM.
03-01-2016, 09:38 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by UserAccessDenied Quote
I've seen far too often the standard answer applies, "Good Job"; even if the player knew they screwed up or didn't do a good job. Coming from an athlete, again I'd rather hear criticism from the coach, "Look for that through ball next time; don't be afraid to shoot from outside; you're faster than that guy - win the 50/50 ball" ...
At the Canadian women's curling championship (hey, it's a big deal up here), they asked all the players if they thought there were "too many high-fives in the game". One of them said if anyone tried to give her a high-five after she screwed up a shot, they'd get clotheslined. If you (or anyone else) has never watched televised curling, it's worth trying at least once. The players have microphones so you get to hear what they are saying to each other - the encouraging comments, deconstructing the things that went wrong, etc. It can make an interesting study on team interactions.

I think I'm mostly in agreement with your point of view, but I may use forum 'likes' a little differently. Often it's just a quick acknowledgement of a useful or funny post and there's not much I feel I can add by commenting except taking up space. For photos though, if I take the time to look at something long enough to decide I "like" it, I usually figure I can take the time to say a few words why. I know I appreciate similar feedback more than just amassing 'likes' (not that they aren't nice too).

Also, forgive me but I'm now about to 'like' your post
03-01-2016, 10:20 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
At the level I coached, it was more important to have an average player doing the right thing than it was to have a superstar doing his or her own thing.
I agree 100%.

Certainly every sport and every team and every coach has their own way of managing their team and players.
Just as every photographer has their own style and perspective and technique.
We are all unique, that's why I love hearing the details to what made someone like a photo of mine. You may like the color rendering, someone else may like the perspective, another may dislike the subject but likes the composition as a whole.
There's always more to the story that just a "like" which is how this entire thread started in the first place, IMHO.

---------- Post added 03-01-16 at 12:23 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
At the Canadian women's curling championship (hey, it's a big deal up here), they asked all the players if they thought there were "too many high-fives in the game". One of them said if anyone tried to give her a high-five after she screwed up a shot, they'd get clotheslined. If you (or anyone else) has never watched televised curling, it's worth trying at least once. The players have microphones so you get to hear what they are saying to each other - the encouraging comments, deconstructing the things that went wrong, etc. It can make an interesting study on team interactions.

I think I'm mostly in agreement with your point of view, but I may use forum 'likes' a little differently. Often it's just a quick acknowledgement of a useful or funny post and there's not much I feel I can add by commenting except taking up space. For photos though, if I take the time to look at something long enough to decide I "like" it, I usually figure I can take the time to say a few words why. I know I appreciate similar feedback more than just amassing 'likes' (not that they aren't nice too).

Also, forgive me but I'm now about to 'like' your post
haha I appreciate the gesture!

Certainly I feel "liking" a post compares differently than "liking" a photo, just my opinion however.
I'll "like" a post for the humor or the content and not have much else to say other than, "haha" or "Agreed". No point wasting space as you said.
Admiring a piece of art can be more complex than that, and often is when I'm drawn to something.

Cheers!
Logan
03-01-2016, 11:55 AM   #22
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Don't sweat over a lack of likes. Many likes and favorites get handed out in hopes of getting a return favor. "If I say everyone else is great, maybe they'll say I'm great, too."

I'm participating in a 52 Week theme project with my local photography club. We're posting one image per week to a Flickr group. Some members (and it's not the young ones) are marking every submission as a favorite. That weakens feedback on everyone's submissions when crappy photos (including some of mine) get favorited too easily.
03-01-2016, 12:27 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wild Mark Quote
As a non-facebook user I am feeling considerably lonely in the first photo competition I have entered in. I have entered two photos in a 'wetlands' photo competition under the categories 'wetland flora' and 'wetland fauna'.



Of course I am not a gen Y with a plethora of enthusiastic likers in my friend list nor am I a naughties teenager with a million school friends addicted to liking. So I guess I am doomed to not even remotely coming close to taking out the 'public choice award'. So, what are the ethics in 'liking' - I am intrigued by this 'recent' phenomenon that drives our online habits.

Please share your thoughts.
I hope it wasn't the final criteria for the competition! not sure if the competition was on facebook, but they have an algorithm that only a certain amount of people can see your post, plus it follows what YOU like. If you don't like a lot of friends posts or images, you may not appear in a feed as much as someone else who is always on facebook and likes a variety of things. Also matters how you upload (through phone or desktop), when you upload, etc

Just my thoughts and I did an experiment. I loaded pictures of my kids up, and then a picture of my cat in a box. Which do you think got my likes among my close friends? THE CAT! I asked them why no one liked the photos of my kids (these were my family and very close friends, otherwise I would not have asked, lol) apparently NO ONE saw the picture of my kids. This was my personal page. On my photography page, it will show that out of my followers, my post reached 9 people. On some photos it is more. Depends how little or often I post.

But I don't enter any contest or competition that goes by "likes" My instagram "likes" are quite low, I use it mostly for social aspect. I met people through it. I used to do competitions they had within certain hub accounts, but while my photo got a lot of likes, I never got any comments and it never amounted to anything so I just kind of check in occasionally. (by that I mean, I didn't 'talk' or meet with anyone, there was no additional social aspect so I stopped doing it)

03-01-2016, 01:33 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Murfy Quote
not sure if the competition was on facebook,
Yes it was on Facebook. The link got removed because I apparently broke a PF rule for linking to 'your' blog or FB page. Well, clearly the linked photos were not liked by the moderator in question . It is unfortunate the links were removed (i.e. not my FB page OR my blog, simply links to another website where the page shown was exclusively my photo only). I guess the only option to not like something is to censor the information DOH - I will get in trouble now for showing contempt!

QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
Don't sweat over a lack of likes.
Ironically I am not all that concerned. I only realised after entering the contest that the judging was, in part, 'like' based. Only then did I realise that I won't have a chance of being recognised for my photography skills (whether they are there or not).

QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
Also, forgive me but I'm now about to 'like' your post
I wonder if this becomes the new norm A post modern irony to the somewhat mindless act of pressing a thumbs up :O

@UserAccessDenied - totally agree. I always give a comment when I like something. It makes it personal in what is otherwise a very impersonal world.
03-01-2016, 01:35 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wild Mark Quote
The link got removed because I apparently broke a PF rule for linking to 'your' blog or FB page. Well, clearly the linked photos were not liked by the moderator in question
So it did, I actually just came back here to look at you photos (as I was busy earlier) and got disappointed...
03-01-2016, 01:40 PM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by bertwert Quote
So it did, I actually just came back here to look at you photos (as I was busy earlier) and got disappointed...
LOL. I'll post the photos here and see if they get liked

The first is a photo of a colleague handling a rare and endangered skink. We were measuring its biometrics as part of a monitoring program. Of course taken with Pentax gear (FA100/2.8 and a body - can't remember).

The second is a photo of a rare and threatened orchid recently described.

Both photos follow the theme for the context. Wetlands. The first being 'Wetland fauna' and the second being 'Wetland flora'. I deliberately moved away from the cliche 'fauna' photos of birds realising they would be over represented in the contest - which they are As for the flora photo well I knew no one would post a photo of that species

---------- Post added 03-02-16 at 07:43 AM ----------

The linked content (now removed) showed only the photo and my commentary on the exhibit. Nothing else. Shame the content got removed.

As an afterthought I should have linked the 'winning' photo as defined by the number of likes it had. At the time of posting I had two likes (my wide and uncle) and the 'winning' exhibit had over 100. Clearly I have few friends
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03-01-2016, 02:21 PM - 2 Likes   #27
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I don't post to contests on Facebook or anywhere else. But I do post in Facebook groups. I posted this one to Birds of the eastern United States and got 156 likes plus 11 'loves'.



It also picked up 10 comments, which is high for one of my pics. Usually it is 1 or 2. Comments are important in Facebook groups because getting a comment moves it back to the top of the page.
03-01-2016, 02:42 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wild Mark Quote
A race to the bottom - mediocrity rules!
Mediocrity is achievable, this explains it's popularity.
03-01-2016, 02:50 PM   #29
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Likes might work OK as UpVotes were the images anonymous and the vote totals not published. In that way the 'voter' is voting for the image, not the tog or the friend, and not falling into a preference cascade.
03-01-2016, 05:50 PM   #30
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I think the O.P. was asking about the questionable use of Facebook (he used the term ethics) as a way to determine a contest winner.

In response to that, I would say once you use that method, you no longer have a photo contest - you have a popularity contest, pure and simple. There is no efficacy or rationale when there are no rules or guidelines or objectives to the judging. Both winning or losing are meaningless.
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