Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-09-2016, 08:05 PM   #31
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
AggieDad's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Houston, TX
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,433
QuoteOriginally posted by gifthorse Quote
At least 11,000 Germans and a smaller number of Italians were interned under Roosevelt's Executive orders 2526 and 2527. No Chinese, Koreans, etc were interned under Executive order 2525. And not all people of Japanese ethnicity were interned. The exclusion zone consisted only of the three west coast states and Arizona and only Japanese from the exclusion zones were interned. The Japanese in the central U.S. and the east coast were not interned. In fact, a number of Japanese were released from the internment camps to attend college in the East. One final note, the Reparations bill specifically excluded Germans or Italians from the reparations.
Yes, that's true. But remember E.O.s 2525-2527 were specifically aimed at non-citizens. These E.O.s were based on the Alien and Sedition Acts. Later Roosevelt issued E.O 9066 which included Japanese-Americans (i.e. citizens) in the internment, citing his wartime powers.

The Japanese-Americans were not only released for college, but also to work in the towns near their camps. There also were a number of Nisei who joined the armed forces (maybe to make things easier for their families in the camps).

Also, consider that those 11,000 Germans amounted to only one-tenth the number of Japanese-Americans interned.

12-10-2016, 05:33 AM - 3 Likes   #32
Veteran Member
johnmflores's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somerville, NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,361
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Germans didn't conduct a surprise attack on the US Pacific fleet, sending most of it to the bottom of the ocean, killing 2400 people, and injuring another 1200.

While the images of the internment camps of Americans of Japanese ethnicity is awful, you have to also think how did non-Japanese Americans think? Their brothers and dads and uncles were slaughtered on December 7th 1941 by people who looked, talked, and held many of the same cultural activities of those that killed their loved ones. So I can see a lot of hysteria and some fear in the US over who is friend and who is foe. They didn't know and weren't going to chance it.

So they took a safe over sorry approach and housed everyone. The sad thing is the accommodations look pitiful, especially for an extended (years) stay. It does look like a prison, because it was a prison of sorts. Then again, the country was fighting a 2 front war and resources were extremely slim.

I sometimes wonder what the world, and specifically our part of it in the US, would look like had we possessed more communication and kindness.

Had the accommodations been a lot more.. accommodating, I think these Americans might possibly have been safer and thus better off in the camps during the war. People do crazy things when they feel threatened. Survival instinct kicks in and logic drops out.

---------- Post added 12-09-16 at 08:39 PM ----------

Btw some of these images are stunning to me.. such as the kids with the flag and some of the portraits. I can see the civility, humanity, and dignity in them... which was likely often dismissed while in these camps (and for a time after the war). A fantastic job was done to document photographically this part of history. However, I dislike the packaging of it on the website though because it is one sided.
I think a good mental exercise is to imagine that someone that resembles you and your family commits a terrorist act or act of war and because of that you and your family are taken from your daily lives and placed in a detention center for many month/years.

I don't know about you but I were put in a detention center in this scenario I would think that it was terribly unjust, even if they were nicer facilities than the ones shown in the photos.
12-10-2016, 05:45 AM - 6 Likes   #33
Veteran Member
FantasticMrFox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Munich
Posts: 2,339
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Germans didn't conduct a surprise attack on the US Pacific fleet, sending most of it to the bottom of the ocean, killing 2400 people, and injuring another 1200.

While the images of the internment camps of Americans of Japanese ethnicity is awful, you have to also think how did non-Japanese Americans think? Their brothers and dads and uncles were slaughtered on December 7th 1941 by people who looked, talked, and held many of the same cultural activities of those that killed their loved ones. So I can see a lot of hysteria and some fear in the US over who is friend and who is foe. They didn't know and weren't going to chance it.
"When they came for the Socialists, I remained silent, for I was not a socialist.

When they came for the Trade Unionists, I did not speak out, for I was no Trade Unionist.

When they came for the Jews, I did not say anything, for I was not a Jew.

When finally they came for me, no one spoke out, for there was no one left to do so."


Martin Niemöller
12-10-2016, 08:11 AM   #34
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
It is hard for those of us living in the modern era to understand the unabated racism that existed in the past. Not that it's completely gone...but at least now people understand where it comes from. The double speak in support of what is clearly racism all speaks volumes. It all sounds so reasonable until you parse what they are saying.

QuoteQuote:
The very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken.”
Double speak at it's best. As if maybe 2 or 3 major terror attacks would have proved that the terrorism had run it's course and that nothing would need to be done about it. The fact that these people were peaceful, made them more dangerous in the mind of the military. My grandfather was German, and both my uncles served in the military. No Germans were interred,

The doctrine
QuoteQuote:
A viper is nonetheless a viper wherever the egg is hatched—so a Japanese-American, born of Japanese parents—grows up to be a Japanese, not an American.
Didn't apply to Germans....apparently.


Last edited by normhead; 12-10-2016 at 08:31 AM.
12-10-2016, 11:31 AM   #35
bxf
Veteran Member
bxf's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Lisbon area
Posts: 1,660
QuoteOriginally posted by SpecialK Quote
"The very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken.”

— General John L. DeWitt, head of the U.S. Army’s Western Defense Command

Strange days...
This line caught my eye as well. Sounds like damned if you do and damned if you don't.
12-10-2016, 11:50 AM   #36
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
QuoteOriginally posted by AggieDad Quote
Yes, that's true. But remember E.O.s 2525-2527 were specifically aimed at non-citizens. These E.O.s were based on the Alien and Sedition Acts. Later Roosevelt issued E.O 9066 which included Japanese-Americans (i.e. citizens) in the internment, citing his wartime powers.

The Japanese-Americans were not only released for college, but also to work in the towns near their camps. There also were a number of Nisei who joined the armed forces (maybe to make things easier for their families in the camps).

Also, consider that those 11,000 Germans amounted to only one-tenth the number of Japanese-Americans interned.
However, I assume the Germans interred were not U.S.citizens. Everyone inters foreign nationals during war. Not many inter their own citizens.
12-10-2016, 11:53 AM   #37
mee
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,403
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I think a good mental exercise is to imagine that someone that resembles you and your family commits a terrorist act or act of war and because of that you and your family are taken from your daily lives and placed in a detention center for many month/years.

I don't know about you but I were put in a detention center in this scenario I would think that it was terribly unjust, even if they were nicer facilities than the ones shown in the photos.
I never claimed it was not unjust. I claimed there are two sides to the story And we are looking at these camps in hindsight, not as the people at the time saw them. There was a lot of unabated fear, a lack of intelligence, and thus a lot of concern.


---------- Post added 12-10-16 at 12:55 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
"When they came for the Socialists, I remained silent, for I was not a socialist.

When they came for the Trade Unionists, I did not speak out, for I was no Trade Unionist.

When they came for the Jews, I did not say anything, for I was not a Jew.

When finally they came for me, no one spoke out, for there was no one left to do so."


Martin Niemöller
Did you miss the part where I called the camps awful ?


Last edited by mee; 12-10-2016 at 12:03 PM.
12-10-2016, 12:02 PM   #38
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
Ya there was two sides to segregation as well, I'm sure there are two sides to every genocide, and probably two sides to every murder. Usually there's one side that doesn't really bear paying much attention too. There is simply one side here. The interment of many of the people was an atrocity. I am distrustful o those who spend time defending the guilty, unless they are paid lawyers. People who work the impact of atrocities by stating not directly related facts and do it for free? I have a different opinion of them.

Sure the guy murdered your mother, but he gave a lot to charity. The relevant part is he murdered your mother. The part about the charity... that kind of gets cancelled by the other thing, except to remind us that apparently decent human beings can do indecent things, while giving to charity.

The best excuse for these dudes in my mind was it was war time and they just didn't want to allocate the resources to investigate each one of these people to determine if any warranted incarceration. That said, it was an allocation of resources mistake as much as it was a human right's mistake. Incarcerating people isn't cheap. Easier to just round them all up, but it had to be costly to keep them. And I 'm sure based on past history, there were Americans who wanted their property and businesses lobbying for it.

Last edited by normhead; 12-10-2016 at 12:21 PM.
12-10-2016, 01:04 PM   #39
mee
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,403
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Ya there was two sides to segregation as well, I'm sure there are two sides to every genocide, and probably two sides to every murder. Usually there's one side that doesn't really bear paying much attention too. There is simply one side here. The interment of many of the people was an atrocity. I am distrustful o those who spend time defending the guilty, unless they are paid lawyers. People who work the impact of atrocities by stating not directly related facts and do it for free? I have a different opinion of them.
You only see one side, but there are two here.

Lumping those vague atrocities in to what happened here is as stretch since Japan declared war on the US. The nations on the African continent did not. Nor was this genocide. After the war most of the interned people at these camps went home.

That is exactly why I spoke up. Because this was becoming one sided and thus a witch hunt.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Sure the guy murdered your mother, but he gave a lot to charity. The relevant part is he murdered your mother. The part about the charity... that kind of gets cancelled by the other thing, except to remind us that apparently decent human beings can do indecent things, while giving to charity.
But you have to put yourself in the shoes of Americans who were not Japanese ethnically. This doesn't appear to be a direct case of racism (the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.) but of fear that ethnic Japanese Americans would attack inland, supportive of the Japanese military during the war.. with Japan. That said, I'm sure racism probably had an effect on generally causing this situation.

As a result, of a larger system of racism still in the country, communication between races was likely rather limited. You didn't know they were just like you because you were told not to befriend people not like you and they didn't look or talk like you. Because of the largely non-intermingling of ethnicities, there were a lot of different cultures in the US with sharp borders between them.

They still exist in some parts today, but no where near the level they did 75 years ago.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The best excuse for these dudes in my mind was it was war time and they just didn't want to allocate the resources to investigate each one of these people to determine if any warranted incarceration.
Exactly. And btw J Edgar Hoover (Director of the FBI during WW2) was opposed to the internment camps. FDR went ahead anyways and signed the executive order (9066) forcing all west coast Japanese Americans into these nasty camps. So it seems they didn't have the resources to conduct these investigations nor the ability due to the president going another way (likely due to key people in the military at the time being in hysteria/panic and shouting in FDR's ear).


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That said, it was a n allocation of resources mistake as much as it was a human right's mistake. Incarcerating people isn't cheap. Easier to just round them all up, but it had to e costly to keep them. And I 'm all sure based on past history, there were Americans who wanted their property and businesses lobbying for it.
Absolutely. I'm sure those who WERE hugely racist or business competitors supporting the creation of camps, but they weren't the sole source or reasoning of the camps. Fear was.
12-10-2016, 02:11 PM - 1 Like   #40
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
"When they came for the Socialists, I remained silent, for I was not a socialist.

When they came for the Trade Unionists, I did not speak out, for I was no Trade Unionist.

When they came for the Jews, I did not say anything, for I was not a Jew.

When finally they came for me, no one spoke out, for there was no one left to do so."


Martin Niemöller
Thanks, FMF, I'm Evernoting that quote!
12-10-2016, 02:59 PM   #41
Veteran Member
johnmflores's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somerville, NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,361
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I never claimed it was not unjust. I claimed there are two sides to the story And we are looking at these camps in hindsight, not as the people at the time saw them. There was a lot of unabated fear, a lack of intelligence, and thus a lot of concern.
Maybe I'm missing something here. You said that the camps were awful. You agree that they were unjust. Yet I get the sense that you either think that they were justified and/or understandable considering the circumstances and that if they were a little less awful in their physical accommodations then it would have been an acceptable response to Pearl Harbor.

Am I reading that right?
12-10-2016, 03:46 PM   #42
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
AggieDad's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Houston, TX
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,433
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
However, I assume the Germans interred were not U.S.citizens. Everyone inters foreign nationals during war. Not many inter their own citizens.

Absolutely. You can include the U.S. in that "not many." I tried to make the citizenship issue clear in my first paragraph:
QuoteOriginally posted by AggieDad:
Yes, that's true. But remember E.O.s 2525-2527 were specifically aimed at non-citizens. These E.O.s were based on the Alien and Sedition Acts. Later Roosevelt issued E.O 9066 which included Japanese-Americans (i.e. citizens) in the internment, citing his wartime powers..
I also should have mentioned that most of the children interned were Nisei or children who were born in America. All they knew of Japan were family stories.
12-10-2016, 04:06 PM - 1 Like   #43
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
or understandable
Surely, he's saying 'regrettable but understandable', John ... I think many of us feel that.
12-10-2016, 04:44 PM   #44
mee
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,403
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Maybe I'm missing something here. You said that the camps were awful. You agree that they were unjust. Yet I get the sense that you either think that they were justified and/or understandable considering the circumstances and that if they were a little less awful in their physical accommodations then it would have been an acceptable response to Pearl Harbor.

Am I reading that right?
It is interesting how two people can communicate and yet not really understand each other. Perhaps this is also a reason for such things that we're discussing now about the past?

I'm saying I am allowing myself to accept the biases and the situation a little more than most here care to and, as a result, can see the reasoning (at the time) why some were paranoid enough to enact these camps.

When you ride on fear, it is easy to make mistakes. Often horrible ones.

The Japanese did it too (not the ones in the camp) but I can also understand their reasons (such as for drafting war in 1941 by attacking Hawaii) however awful and counterproductive (they wanted to shock and awe the US into surrendering, instead they drew the US into a rapid expanding of their military).
12-11-2016, 04:31 AM   #45
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,386
Let us not forget:
In the interests of national security the Australian Government interned thousands of German, Italian and Japanese men, women and children during World War I and World War II.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
act, camps, center, concentration, country, images, lot, people, photographs, photography, prison, time, trade, war
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Those with K1's M's Taks, K's and A's tromboads Pentax K-1 & K-1 II 14 05-01-2016 08:05 PM
People Photographs from today's set Vitzthumb Post Your Photos! 2 10-14-2015 02:01 AM
For Sale - Sold: Too Many Fast 50's, Help Me Move Them! Held Over Until May 30th, A's, F's and FA's MightyMike Sold Items 11 05-30-2015 05:13 PM
Nature oh little star(s)-of-bethlehem(s) CreationBear Post Your Photos! 5 04-29-2015 06:43 AM
For Sale - Sold: Too Many Fast 50's, Help Me Move Them! Limited Time Offer!!! A's, F's and FA's MightyMike Sold Items 10 01-31-2015 08:51 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:11 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top