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01-03-2017, 06:36 AM   #16
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I have tried both on the same sensor size (K100Ds & K-01).

The main differences were all related to factors not directly linked to the mirror/mirrorless design choice (AF motor strength/speed, sensor tech/generation) etc.

Only tangible benefit was a quieter shutter due to the lack of a mirror slapping inside the camera - you only got the curtains of the shutter moving.

Size was not all that difference, since the registration distance was the same, and I kinda missed the bigger grip of the DLSR; plus, in order to work in direct sunlight, I had to purchase an LCD loupe, which completely negated the size advantage.
Mirrorless cameras with OVF are of course ok on this respect, but there are many which need an additional, even though less bulky, accessory viewfinder.

So in the end it all boils down to O-vs-E viewfinder, and which is better depends on so many different factors (resolution, light conditions) that the issue is not all as clear-cut as it could seem at first glance.

01-03-2017, 08:33 AM   #17
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Brad mentioned a significant advantage (depending on your individual interests) of most current mirrorless cameras - the ability to use a wide range of adapted lenses.

Due to the lack of a mirror mechanism, the registration distance between lens and sensor can be significantly reduced, to much less than most (all?) SLR / DSLR and rangefinder cameras. As a happy consequence, all the lenses for those cameras can be used on most mirrorless bodies, subject to the availability of suitable adapters.

On my A7II I'm using my Sony / Minolta A-mount glass along with K-mount, M42 lenses and even a couple of M39-mount rangefinder lenses, all using different adapters. In fact, I don't use any native E-mount lenses on the A7II - only adapted glass.

The K-01 doesn't benefit from quite the same flexibility, as the flange focal distance is the same as for Pentax SLR / DSLRs - though M42 lenses are still easily adapted...
01-03-2017, 08:42 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
The compactness of micro four thirds is somewhat illusory. To me they are nothing more or less than the inheritor of the rangefinder camera, but with the electronics giving them all the WYSIWYG benefits of an SLR. I saw some of the early Olympus bodies a while back and was briefly entranced - not least because they are about the size of a Pentax MX or their own ancestors the OM series*, and they have film-like knobs on - but some of the high-end Panasonics are not much smaller than an APS-C DSLR (if that), and to me that defeats the point. To me, Micro 4/3 only makes sense with wide to normal focal lengths in a compact lens package, with a longer zoom occasionally cribbed on.

I've seen one or two professionals on YouTube use them, but this is in the setting of significant amounts of studio lighting (either in studio or in the field with portable powerpacks); they can supply all the light they need or want, and that wipes out any disadvantage the smaller sensors have at high ISO or low light, while leaving them with all the advantages of pixels per square mm.

If I wasn't eyeball deep in Pentax (M42, K film and K digital), I'd seriously consider Olympus M4/3... but only as a travel and social-snapshots camera, not as the heart of a serious professional system.


* IMO the smaller sensor was designed to allow the EM series to be constructed around it as their spiritual successors, and capitalise on nostalgia for the OM's. Olympus may not have kept the same lens mount, but they certainly understand the importance of legacy.
Micro 4/3 came about from 4/3. 4/3 wasn't small at all. It had a mirror and longer flange distances. It was also quite high end minded. The goals were lofty and some of the lenses were pretty amazing but sensor technology lagged. M4/3 brought a considerable size reduction and huge gains in IQ have been made at the sensor level and at the camera processing level.

Olympus pen F is distinctly like the Nikon Df in that it is a retro design made to capitalize on nostalgia. But most Panasonic designs are pretty simply function dictating form in two basic designs (slr-like and rangefinder-like) most Olympus cameras are similarly aligned to one of these designs.

As for size, it is no illusion. My GX-1 paired with a 14-42 and 30-100 has the same functionality of a much larger package and covers 28-200mm equivalence f3.5-5.6. Sure it is slow and the sensor isn't happy at low ISO, but compare the capabilities to old 35mm film and you start to rethink things. My 35-100 is similar in performance to the 70-210 a series f4 lens from Pentax but slightly slower on the long end and fits in my hand allowing my fingers to wrap around it and touch. Even my dad's GX-7 and 35-100 f2.8 is drastically smaller than my K-3 and 50-135 f2.8.

And sure I realize the apsc advantage in ISO and depth of field so I understand the comparison isn't direct. But effective shooting under normal lighting is possible and the package has very good IQ.

Putting smallish primes on m43 leads to even more compact systems with faster apertures. It is a good system, but I'm so invested in Pentax it is hard to maintain two systems at high quality so I keep a super compact m43 travel system and a tricked out apsc Pentax system.
01-03-2017, 09:23 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
plus, in order to work in direct sunlight, I had to purchase an LCD loupe, which completely negated the size advantage.
Very good point. My love affair with the Pentax Q was greatly curtailed by the EVF performance in bright light, which
relegated the camera to use indoors, evenings and cloudy days. I eventually purchased a LCD loupe which did help
in sunlight, but nearly doubled the size of the camera, rendering it no longer pocketable. Size issues aside, the loupe
itself had a poor fit and the view through the loupe was nowhere near as crisp and immediate as without.

I'll admit I haven't looked at any mirrorless more recent than the Q10 so I don't know how current cameras perform.

01-03-2017, 09:42 AM   #20
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My GX-1 has an EVF add on that I use.
01-03-2017, 09:45 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
Very good point. My love affair with the Pentax Q was greatly curtailed by the EVF performance in bright light...
I'll admit I haven't looked at any mirrorless more recent than the Q10 so I don't know how current cameras perform.
Well, the Q series use the main LCD screen - they have no EVF or OVF (although you can add an OVF). And yes, that's problem in bright light (unless using a loupe).

Shooting with an EVF rather than using the main LCD screen is much more practical and enjoyable - especially if it's a good EVF on a fairly recent camera.
01-03-2017, 09:59 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Well, the Q series use the main LCD screen - they have no EVF or OVF (although you can add an OVF). And yes, that's problem in bright light (unless using a loupe).

Shooting with an EVF rather than using the main LCD screen is much more practical and enjoyable - especially if it's a good EVF on a fairly recent camera.
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Well, the Q series use the main LCD screen - they have no EVF or OVF
That is, erm...... egg on my face. I guess I >haven't< actually used an EVF anytime recently. Somewhere in the
past I probably knew there was a difference between EVF and Live View on the LCD, but clearly I had forgotten.

Even recently a friend handed me his G7. The camera was already turned on with Live View active. I fiddled
for a bit, but we were in a restaurant and conversation and meal quickly took over and I never noticed nor
explored the EVF. My only lasting impression of the G7 was small and light and just a little toy-like.

I must admit, this (re)new(ed) awareness leaves me intrigued...

01-03-2017, 01:22 PM   #23
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DSLRs are doooomed.
01-03-2017, 01:26 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
DSLRs are doooomed.
Along with humans. But the time of their demise is a long way off yet I would say...
01-03-2017, 01:49 PM - 1 Like   #25
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First, let me apologize for my poor phrasing in my original question. I was really only referring to the M34 sensor cameras when I said mirrorless - a careless use of words.

On the other hand, my mistake was, perhaps, a bit fortuitous as it has spawned a much wider discussion than I hoped or expected, and I have found it very interesting.

Thanks to all for your contributions to my continuing photography education.
01-03-2017, 02:02 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by AggieDad Quote
First, let me apologize for my poor phrasing in my original question. I was really only referring to the M34 sensor cameras when I said mirrorless - a careless use of words.

On the other hand, my mistake was, perhaps, a bit fortuitous as it has spawned a much wider discussion than I hoped or expected, and I have found it very interesting.

Thanks to all for your contributions to my continuing photography education.
Don I have both and m43 and a K-3 apsc camera and many lenses and my dad recently switched to m43 from a K-3 so if you ever have specific questions or want to talk I can certainly spend time with you on the phone or on the forum telling you what I know and suspect.
01-03-2017, 03:30 PM   #27
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Micro Four-Thirds' (m43) main benefit compared to a full frame DSLR is smaller size and less weight.

m43 is often touted as being better for extreme telephoto. That's because smaller sensors have smaller pixels so it's easy to reach extreme zoom levels. Theoretically, a full frame sensor could have the same size pixels, but you'd wind up with an unwieldy 100 megapixel image. As you get into extreme telephoto, though, lenses grow in size and feel unbalanced on a small m43 camera body.

m43 image quality is "good enough" (admittedly subjective) when there's ample light. Full frame pulls ahead as light dims and you increase ISO.

m43 has an electronic viewfinder or liveview. Full frame DSLR by definition has an optical viewfinder. OVF vs EVF is a discussion unto itself. EVF allows features such as focus peaking and other overlays through the viewfinder (full frame can only do that with liveview), but can have lag and causes headaches for some users.

Full frame has superior battery life. OVF is passive while EVF requires that the sensor be energized. FF also has room for a larger, more powerful battery.

Full frame gives more room for control wheels and buttons.

m43 never needs autofocus calibration because focusing is done on the sensor. Full frame AF can be finicky because there's a separate AF module needed when using OVF; the calibration menu can correct that but it takes some effort to set up. Using liveview on full frame focuses more like m43.

Personally, I prefer the DSLR for image quality because so many of my photos are taken at night.
01-03-2017, 08:27 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by AggieDad Quote
... to me about the fascination with mirrorless cameras?

On one hand I read about "real pros" use cameras with full-frame sensors. Then I read about the revolution that is happening with mirrorless cameras with the smaller M43 sensor.

What I don't understand is this: if the full-frame is better than the APS-C size, why do I seem to be constantly reading that the coming (or arrived) thing is a camera with a smaller sensor? Why would an M43 give me a better image than my APS-C?

What am I missing?
Pick up a Fuji X-T2 and use it for a while.
You will have your answer.
01-03-2017, 09:24 PM   #29
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I've considered a few mirrorless cameras or should I just say smaller cameras (but still APS-C). For instance, I've thought about getting the Fuji x100t as a smaller camera to carry around everywhere AND because it is one of those with the hybrid viewfinder.

With my eye-sight, I'm a bit hesitant on an EVF. I like looking through the lens, and in reality, it's hard for me to complain about my typical kit being too big (thus not actually buying anything besides my dSLR). For instance, for street photography, I walk around with my K3 and a DA21 and FA43. When I looked into the x100t or even the GRii, I found that the size difference wasn't going to be huge, and for my hand-size I honestly prefer the larger K3.

It's mostly just nostalgia. There is also financial reasons and even just personal reasons for not wanting to have to invest in a new system or go through the effort of selling my current system. The fixed lens options like mentioned above appeal (just a bit) because it's just a camera. something like a Sony or Fuji system requires a whole slew of lenses.

Finally, I can't say the sensor size matters much to me. I'm used to APS-C right now, and I likely won't go for a larger system because I don't see a cost-benefit for what I do. I don't see the 43 sensors as inferior either.

If the EVFs ever get to the point where they are almost equivalent to an optical viewfinder or if the battery life ever gets significantly better, then maybe I'll consider things, or perhaps the end of all dSLR's. I'd like to think that won't happen too soon. I'm actually hoping I can run my K3 to the ground before I buy another camera. I love it so much, and I'd like to see it get to 100k or 200k shutter actuations, and see if the shutter mechanism will actually fail. It's a bit like a good car.
01-03-2017, 09:27 PM   #30
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Battery life is not bad. I think this is overstated. With LCD only cameras the battery life is worse but with small EVF's it's not that bad.
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