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05-26-2017, 08:20 AM - 1 Like   #31
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If you are torn between picking APS-C and full frame, and can't decide which one is better for your style of photography, it probably doesn't matter which sensor you pick.

The differences IMO matter most for edge cases like extreme telephoto, ultra wide angle, and night photography.

05-26-2017, 08:49 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
If you are torn between picking APS-C and full frame, and can't decide which one is better for your style of photography, it probably doesn't matter which sensor you pick.
.


Not sure who the "you" is that you are referring to but if it is me, the OP, I am not "torn" between choices - I have and use both. I was interested in a discussion of the technical aspects of the different sizes relative to number of pixels, and so far it has been very interesting.

Last edited by sibyrnes; 05-26-2017 at 08:55 AM.
05-26-2017, 09:30 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by sibyrnes Quote
Not sure who the "you" is that you are referring to but if it is me, the OP, I am not "torn" between choices - I have and use both. I was interested in a discussion of the technical aspects of the different sizes relative to number of pixels, and so far it has been very interesting.
It wasn't directed at anyone specific, just a general "you". It's a good question but there's never a definitive answer for best sensor size. Any time we compare sensor sizes we are also comparing different camera models, and often different lenses.
05-26-2017, 10:31 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by RoccoStiglitz Quote
It's all about the amount of light you're able to capture. Crop size has an effect on virtually every measurable variable of an exposure.

Crop Factor with ISO & Aperture: How Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon & Fuji Cheat You - YouTube

In this video (even though the main topic is somthing else he explains crop vs fullframe to illustrate it) author does an excellent job explaning how crop factor impacts your photographs. It's a little long but very informative.
OP -> Northup has 3 videos about this subject. By the time you listen to all three you might understand it... or maybe not... I'm not sure if I do.
Think about it a while... watch the videos again...

05-26-2017, 02:23 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Well, the K-3 will get you more resolution, Mee, if that's what you mean.

1:1, there are 50% more pixels crammed into that view.

But, hey, I'm sure you can come up with your own experiments and pics about that.
No that isn't exactly what I mean. I'm not sure we're clear on what a 1:1 crop is. Think of it this way -- if you are in an image viewer (viewing an.. image) and you zoom in to 100% view, you are at 1:1 crop size. At that size there is no scaling up or down. That is the data as it is recorded per pixel.

I'm interested in the results of taking a (or many) FF sensors of the same resolution of one (or many) APS-C sensors, zooming to 100% (or taking a 1:1 crop of the center) and comparing the results. What is the rendering behavior of a Full Frame sensor over a crop one? Medium Format (even larger) have their own distinct rendering and 1:1 crops look outstanding easily besting even mildly oversampled APS-C images in detail. But my searches haven't been on same resolution comparisons... since there are no 24 MP medium format digital cameras. Nor are there 36 MP crop bodies..

But there are 24 MP crop and FF bodies. Thus the question..

If I had the hardware to make the comparison, I wouldn't be on Pentax Forums asking for such... I'd have just done it. But, at 1:1, perhaps it doesn't matter since there isn't any sampling.. if that is the case then I already know the answer -- full frame looks better at 1:1 than APS-C by a wide margin. Yet I'm not certain this does or does not matter.. photographs between the two would better answer it than forum member assumptions and guesses.
05-26-2017, 04:12 PM - 1 Like   #36
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K David, I think I wasn't clear enough. Do the following experiment: make a photo about a subject which is 2m from the camera. I need 0.18m depth of field, 50mm field of view on aps-c, 1/100s shutter speed and correct exposeure. The correct exposeur is ISO100, F2.8 1/100s in the experiment. Now I have to take the photo by a 24MP FF or a 24MP aps-c camera. These are given, intented parameters.
The shutter speed is given, so no need for further consideration.
The focal length for field of view is given on aps-c. On the FF I need 75mm for the same field of view, because the crop factor is 1.5.
The aperture on the aps-c must be F2.8 for the given field of view according to online dof calculator (Online Depth of Field Calculator).
On FF I need F4 or F4.5 for the same depth of field with the longer 75mm lens. The crop factor (1.5) is near to 1.4 so round it, and then we get F4.
So on aps-c the 1/100s, F2.8 needs ISO100 for correct exposeur. On the FF the 1/100s F4 needs ISO200 for correct exposeur. This is the point where I loose the noise performance.
Finally, if you want the same image you does not get too much from the bigger sensor, but if you can use shallower depth of field the FF may be the only option because you won't get faster lens on the aps-c. So bigger sensor makes more opportunity.
05-27-2017, 02:58 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
But there are 24 MP crop and FF bodies. Thus the question..
A brief comparison of the d610 and d7100 with a few 1:1 crops:

Is a Full Frame Camera Really Worth It? D610 vs D7100 Real World Test

More details in the dedicated reviews on Imaging Resources, but they have a hand full of 1:1 crops here:

Nikon D7100 vs Nikon D610 Image Quality

And I'm sure there are more comparisons out there

05-27-2017, 09:36 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
A brief comparison of the d610 and d7100 with a few 1:1 crops:

Is a Full Frame Camera Really Worth It? D610 vs D7100 Real World Test

More details in the dedicated reviews on Imaging Resources, but they have a hand full of 1:1 crops here:

Nikon D7100 vs Nikon D610 Image Quality

And I'm sure there are more comparisons out there
Thanks, Brian.

Actually I was reading the Petapixel article you linked last night! It is, so far, the closest review for what I was searching.

This afternoon, I was in the neighborhood of my 'friendly, neighborhood' bestbuy and took some shots with a D7200, D750, and (for reference) D810. Settings weren't fully scaled between the three.. but I got a little more info that way too. So far the results are inconclusive.. one bit of data shows near parity between systems with a similar resolution, another more detail in the FF images.
05-27-2017, 10:34 PM - 1 Like   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I would like to see 1:1 crops taken from a 24 MP APS-C camera and another crop from a 24 MP FF camera each using a similarly rated lens with equivalent FL and aperture. Is the detail in the FF noticeable? negligible?
I had done some test shots in the past comparing how resolution and the effects of cropping to gain reach and then compared it to using a camera with less photosites but increasing the FL to the achieve the same FOV as cropping.

For the testing I used a pentax 16mp K5 and compared it to the pentax 6mp DS. I used these 2 cameras as they are very close to ratio of photosite size that we see between FF and cropped. When the K5 is cropped by a factor of 1.6 we wind up with a resulting image that is 6mp.

One of the first test I had performed was as direct comparison of the same lens at the same F-stop and holding the framing as to hold the size of the subject within the frame. This was done by moving the camera closer to the subject by the crop factor.


Many would suspect that the relatively large photo sites of the K5 and the DS that it should not be hard for the DFA to resolve more than enough detail for you not to lose any resolution when cropping but this shows the opposite. As photosites get smaller the gap start to become more noticeable than this.

As we decrease the size of the photo sites to increase the captured resolution of both the camera and lens we only grain a fraction of that increase in pixel density, this is why we lose resolution via cropping

When cropped we need to enlarge the image circle projected by the lens by the factor that we have cropped. This shows more of the lenses faults, to combat this the lens that is being cropped has to resolve more to make up this. This also means that for the larger format you can use a lens that resolves less while still retaining the same final resolution in the image.


I don’t have a 150mm prime lens the same caliber as the DFA100mm so I went into my box of lenses and dug out and found an old M 80-200F4.5. Here you can see that with the larger photo sites of the DS when shot at the same FOV and DOF we are able to resolve the same level of detail ( maybe more)as camera with smaller photo sites using a prime lens.



Here was other test that I have done using the same cameras and the same cropping as above, the only difference was I used the sigma 70-200 F2.8 on the DS. Again they are shot at the same DOF and FOV to mimic FF to cropped
I had used a slanted target to avoid any focusing errors ( click to view at 100%)

Image resources also conducted resolution testing



They show the same findings
Click to view at 100%

Last edited by Ian Stuart Forsyth; 05-27-2017 at 10:42 PM.
05-27-2017, 11:33 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by sibyrnes Quote
What is the advantage of a full frame 24 mp camera over a 24 mp aps-c?
Does bragging rights count?

If so... we have a winner.
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