Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-12-2017, 01:43 PM   #1
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Flyover America
Posts: 4,469
My favorite bitch about modern digital cameras - ergonomics.

Take a look - he sums it up better than I could.
BTW - so far as I'm concerned this video was not about the particular cameras mentioned they were just examples.
I have no experience or opinion about the X-T2 one way or the other.
It's worth a look.




Last edited by wildman; 06-12-2017 at 01:54 PM.
06-12-2017, 02:31 PM   #2
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Alex645's Avatar

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Kaneohe, HI
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,524
QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
Take a look - he sums it up better than I could.
BTW - so far as I'm concerned this video was not about the particular cameras mentioned they were just examples.
I have no experience or opinion about the X-T2 one way or the other.
It's worth a look.

Fujifilm X-T2 :: design which BLOWS EVERY CAMERA AWAY - YouTube
I agree with his point, but there are few counterpoints I'd add.

a) If the user experience and design is essential, are there photographers that actually prefer an EVF over an OVF? The electronic viewfinder is what has kept me away from mirrorless and loyal to DSLRs.

b) I have owned two Nikon F3HP since 1986. The A or AV mode on it was not the amazing deal. The ergonomics that he doesn't mention include:
-Ratcheting film advance lever that is as smooth as silk,
-Shutter speed dial that can be reached and turned with just your right index finger sans thumb
-All manual shutter release if your batteries die.
-High point viewfinder that shows you 100% of the image, even with eyeglasses on.
-A built-in shutter for the viewfinder for long unmanned exposures on a tripod.
-T mode which acts like Bulb but doesn't require holding down the shutter release and does not use power
-The sound of the the mirror slap and focal plane shutter had a build quality like a luxury car door closing. Solid and satisfying.
-Birth of the red stripe. Designed by Italian car designer Giorgetto Giugiaro, he put a signature red stripe that Nikon has been doing ever since. Absolutely nothing to do with function. Purely as unimportant as a gold or red or green ring on a lens, but to many photographers, a badge.
06-12-2017, 03:06 PM - 1 Like   #3
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 42,007
QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
are there photographers that actually prefer an EVF over an OVF?
The answer is yes. There are several users on this site who truly love the features of their EVF and have no interest in going back to an optical finder.

As for me, I would have seriously considered an A7II if not for finder-induced vertigo.

Steve
06-12-2017, 03:33 PM   #4
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote

I can place that hgram precisely where I want instantly and in real time before I actually make the exposure. .
But it's the histogram of the Jpeg (it uses that engine to render in the display). It's not the RAW, it's just not accurate anyway.

I have three cameras with EVFs and my opinion? Meh.





06-12-2017, 04:08 PM   #5
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
c.a.m's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,153
No doubt, ergonomic design is important, and simplicity of operation is attractive. In fact, I was attracted to my first Pentax K-7 because I was able to figure it out right in the store without resorting to a manual for help, and it fit my hands extremely well.

So, this guy's eight and half minute video boils down to: Ergonomic design is important, and simplicity is attractive. The exposure settings should be easily adjustable. Here are two cameras that demonstrate these design imperatives.

His Youtube video carries the indefensible headline: Fujifilm X-T2 :: design which BLOWS EVERY CAMERA AWAY. He doesn't seem to get into the many other important considerations such as menu flow, other primary settings, and use with big lenses. And - to be expected - the Youtube commentators pile on with 'yes, Fuji good' or 'no, Fuji bad'.

- Craig

Last edited by c.a.m; 06-12-2017 at 05:02 PM. Reason: typo
06-12-2017, 04:17 PM   #6
Veteran Member




Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,448
QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
Yes. Myself.
As a RAW ETTR shooter the single most important technical issue I have to deal with is ETTR exposure.
I have three Pentax DSLRs and two Olys (mirroless). When it comes to giving me a more less perfect exposure the EVF in Olys are obviously superior to OVF of the Pentax.

I can place that histogram precisely where I want instantly and in real time before I actually make the exposure. Creatively it's so liberating compared to a clumsy unresponsive OVF for the purpose of exposure.

So yes, for my purposes, and with my limited experience so far the EVF is superior.
I shall chose to wholeheartedly disagree. I believe the internal exposure meter was never designed to accommodate ETTR. ETTR is a digital derivation of the zone system and the application of external light meter practice. Don't get me wrong, I am an ETTR fan, and as dedicated to the technique as anyone. But that is the very reason for image playback. Or, if you want to simulate the EVF experience, use Live View and the the histogram overlay. It's basically turning your OVF DSLR into an EVF mirroless. But what a mirrorless CAN'T do is the reverse. An EVF camera cannot (currently) provide real time responsiveness and the sense of unity with the equipment an OVF DSLR provides.

And since this tread is actually about ergonomics, I'll conclude with this: I can't imagine trying to shoot a mirrorless camera with my 500mm lens! Maybe 20 years in the future, when there is less than a millosecond lag in image response AND the camera is somehow designed to facilitate marksmanship quality stability with long, fast FF lenses, I would consider a mirrorless/EVF camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
But it's the histogram of the Jpeg (it uses that engine to render in the display). It's not the RAW, it's just not accurate anyway.

I have three cameras with EVFs and my opinion? Meh.
I've found the histogram to very accurate/useful for judging ETTR success. What is unequivocally useLESS is the overly contrasty LCD screen. A proper ETTR image looks almost washed out and overexposed on playback. Additionally, I keep the JPEG processing parameters to neutral if not slightly subdued, just for that reason. But honestly, I could probably get very excited about a histogram ONLY display, in which the histogram takes up the entire LCD with no image projection whatsoever. In my workflow, I've already composed the scene through the viewfinder and have a very good idea based on hyperfocal calculations and/or experience what my depth of field rendering will be. The last step in the process is dialing in the exposure. I need the histogram on playback to tell me what the sensor actually recorded.

So if Pentax wants my two cents worth, give me a LARGE histogram ONLY option for the LCD!....lol

Last edited by nomadkng; 06-12-2017 at 04:29 PM.
06-12-2017, 04:45 PM - 1 Like   #7
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
From my actual experience it's irrelevant.

First of of all I have been told by Adobe directly that the hgram, as displayed in Adobe Camera Raw, is based directly on the RAW file at least when using DNG..
It is not.

That second histogram in turn is based on the profile applied by Adobe at import.

The first histogram you see in the EVF in your camera displays clipping when in fact highlights can be recovered in post.

If you really are an ETTR shooter as you claim, it is inaccurate. It is too conservative. You can do better.

06-12-2017, 05:09 PM - 1 Like   #8
Moderator
Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
MarkJerling's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,385
If there's one thing that makes my blood boil it's every Youtuber who feels the need to have an 8 to 28 minute video showing me (virtually) nothing other than their talking head. By all means, show me the thing you're reviewing and what makes it so special. But, I don't want to see the talking head.
06-12-2017, 05:19 PM   #9
Moderator
Man With A Camera
Loyal Site Supporter
Racer X 69's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: The Great Pacific Northwet, in the Land Between Canada and Mexico
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 28,014
For the most part I feel that the DSLR works in a similar fashion to the SLR of yesterday. Sure, there are a lot more buttons and dials, the terminology is a bit different, but overall, the layout and use is the same.

What I can't get past is no one offers a decent eyepiece cup for Pentax cameras. I used one on my SLR for as long as I used it for photography. Worked great, sealing out stray light, helping me to see through the viewfinder and compose a shot.




I want one on my DSLR too.
06-12-2017, 05:25 PM - 2 Likes   #10
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
If there's one thing that makes my blood boil it's every Youtuber who feels the need to have an 8 to 28 minute video showing me (virtually) nothing other than their talking head. By all means, show me the thing you're reviewing and what makes it so special. But, I don't want to see the talking head.
Yep, unless you're Charlize Theron, hide that mug and show us some pics, or make it a podcast.
06-12-2017, 05:36 PM - 1 Like   #11
Moderator
Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
MarkJerling's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,385
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yep, unless you're Charlize Theron, hide that mug and show us some pics, or make it a podcast.
Yup. Never thought I'd say this about a girl from Benoni, but I have to agree with you Clackers! Charlize can show as much of herself as she likes in any video!

Last edited by MarkJerling; 06-12-2017 at 06:30 PM. Reason: typo
06-13-2017, 02:42 AM   #12
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 11,694
Ahh yes the Big E. Ergonomics in camera design over the years has been really hit-and-miss affair. IMO Pentax has been consistently good in this area over the years.

QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
If the user experience and design is essential, are there photographers that actually prefer an EVF over an OVF?
Having worked with the Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X1D for a consecutive week: I remain distinctly unimpressed by EVFs. A lot of processing overhead that goes into the live view EVF reduces battery life and in general slows the camera down. Also with the EVF in dim light environments they have a tendency to become grainy and this makes precise focusing ( even with peaking) with fast lenses difficult. Dynamic range is also an issue as the EVFs have issues with handling wide contrast ratios accurately.

QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
The red stripe.
I prefer the red dot.

Last edited by Digitalis; 06-13-2017 at 02:49 AM.
06-13-2017, 03:17 AM   #13
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 27,572
The important question is, I suppose, what are you used to? For those who grew up in the current, digital era of photography, throw back cameras often feel clunky and uncomfortable to use, while the front/back dial with a few buttons is significantly more natural.

As for the whole EVF thing, it is probably left for another day. They are getting better, but unless you shoot a lot of manual focus lenses, most of the stuff that ends up in the viewfinder is a distraction from the real point of photography -- composing and capturing a good image.
06-13-2017, 03:56 AM   #14
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2015
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,381
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
For those who grew up in the current, digital era of photography, throw back cameras often feel clunky and uncomfortable to use
This is one of the reasons why I prefer the MX at one end and the S1a at the other to all the Spotmatic bodies; I can get my hands around them a little better. (Plus my Traitor Camera, the Fujica ST705, which is about MX-sized but with an M42 mount.)

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
They are getting better, but unless you shoot a lot of manual focus lenses, most of the stuff that ends up in the viewfinder is a distraction from the real point of photography
There are times I would love to be able to look through a viewfinder and preserve the brightness of the image even when I've got a Takumar cranked down to f/16 or f/22; ambient light doesn't always permit the use of live view. I have handled a Sony MILC and the viewfinder wasn't all that bad; if I shot purely Takumars, I might be tempted.

QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
His Youtube video carries the indefensible headline: Fujifilm X-T2 :: design which BLOWS EVERY CAMERA AWAY.
I can understand his enthusiasm. If I were getting into interchangeable-lens digital systems right now with no prior history except film, the Fujifilm system would be looking pretty good. Having shutter, aperture and EV comp at my fingertips with knobs, with the ability to automate either of the primary controls just by flicking to A (and switching to program mode by doing it with both) is what the P30T should have been (minus the EV comp, of course), and it would just about destroy any need or justification I had to go menu-diving.

Last edited by pathdoc; 06-13-2017 at 04:02 AM.
06-13-2017, 07:37 AM - 1 Like   #15
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2015
Location: Hampshire
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 892
QuoteOriginally posted by Racer X 69 Quote
For the most part I feel that the DSLR works in a similar fashion to the SLR of yesterday. Sure, there are a lot more buttons and dials, the terminology is a bit different, but overall, the layout and use is the same.

What I can't get past is no one offers a decent eyepiece cup for Pentax cameras. I used one on my SLR for as long as I used it for photography. Worked great, sealing out stray light, helping me to see through the viewfinder and compose a shot.




I want one on my DSLR too.

I agree a decent eyepiece cup would be great, I'm sure they could come up with a better one or even a choice for spectacle users and non spectacle users.
My experience with my T90 with eyecup was great EXCEPT that the film door used to foul on it so I took it off when changing a film.....and misplaced it.
The T90 did have an eyepiece blind that was handy when firing remotely, that is a feature I would like to see on DSLRs too.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
cameras, look, photography
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pets Favorite dog with my favorite lens Knock Post Your Photos! 5 02-16-2016 10:12 PM
Machinery Strawberry Bitch tim.anderson Post Your Photos! 2 09-24-2010 11:41 AM
Modern Media /Modern Minds seacapt General Talk 24 09-23-2010 03:55 PM
Black & White My favorite model with my favorite lens seanix Post Your Photos! 5 04-14-2010 06:13 PM
I'll never bitch about lens prices again Fl_Gulfer General Talk 22 10-26-2009 06:39 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:23 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top