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08-16-2017, 08:17 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Sorry if it is upsetting. The 18-50 was specifically designed as a compact kit lens. I'm not sure about the Sony lens. I assumed an 18-55 variable aperture lens was a kit, but I could be wrong. The KS-1 is one of the smaller Pentax cameras that I'm aware of, but the kx and kr and km were pretty small too. They just aren't on camera size's web site.



My point is only that everyone acts like the reason that SLRs is so big is because of the mirror and yes, if you remove the mirror, you can make them thinner. There is no doubt about that fact. But otherwise they are often similar size and if you want things like IBIS, easy access buttons, good ergonomics, you may need to make your camera a little larger in order to accommodate average human hands.


I see you say may, but if you look at the olympus offerings in comparison to other m43 cameras, the ibis on those cameras do not really add any size to them. Besides why is everyone so caught up on the size of their camera? Yes i know portability and weight... blah, blah. Small bodies and larger bodies both have their advantages. I would think people should be happy with both, and equally happy with mirrorless cameras for one reason, and that is pushing advancements in digital photography equipment in general.

In the grand scheme of things the two, dslrs and milc, is all about preferences. The parts that most of us overlook is, for the average consumer:

They are not going to worry about draining their battery, and a single battery will last a couple outings, and most likely will drain quicker sitting on a shelf then at the different events they use it for.

Most likely will just stick with the kit lens, if not might get a better lens for one reason or another. In the case of dslr a case would be looking for a smaller lens. As far as milc it would be image quality.

Likely will pick a camera based on store prices or word of mouth. One of the reasons why canon are still selling a great number of cameras.

Are happy with their phones and when picking a camera want something equivalent in size, priced decently, and/or feels great with good pictures.

Idk thats my thought anyways, and things ive heard from people as well. Just the other day, i was on a hike and a guy was curious on the camera i was shooting with. As the conversation was done with, he was really considering dropping his canon for a panasonic, olympus, or even sony, the size/weight advantage, and features they had over traditional cameras.

Im not advocating for the mirrorless movement, but it should not be overlooked. At the same time pentax is not a mirrorless company(not yet anyways), they cater to the small dslr packed with features. Really not bad either way.




08-17-2017, 01:56 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I found that clickless aperture control awful, Dannny.
Really butchers your workflow, trying to be f4 for one shot, f11 the next, back to f5.6 for the one after that.
Autofocus and auto aperture mean my K-1 gets used instead of my Sony A7.
Yes, it would be quite impossible to be at chosen aperture. However i realized that i shoot quite closed for landscapes,and for portraits/stuff wide open anyway, so it makes no big issue for me. More annoying for me is the a7r shooter sound.
08-17-2017, 02:18 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fcsnt54 Quote
I see you say may, but if you look at the olympus offerings in comparison to other m43 cameras, the ibis on those cameras do not really add any size to them. Besides why is everyone so caught up on the size of their camera? Yes i know portability and weight... blah, blah. Small bodies and larger bodies both have their advantages. I would think people should be happy with both, and equally happy with mirrorless cameras for one reason, and that is pushing advancements in digital photography equipment in general.

In the grand scheme of things the two, dslrs and milc, is all about preferences. The parts that most of us overlook is, for the average consumer:

They are not going to worry about draining their battery, and a single battery will last a couple outings, and most likely will drain quicker sitting on a shelf then at the different events they use it for.

Most likely will just stick with the kit lens, if not might get a better lens for one reason or another. In the case of dslr a case would be looking for a smaller lens. As far as milc it would be image quality.

Likely will pick a camera based on store prices or word of mouth. One of the reasons why canon are still selling a great number of cameras.

Are happy with their phones and when picking a camera want something equivalent in size, priced decently, and/or feels great with good pictures.

Idk thats my thought anyways, and things ive heard from people as well. Just the other day, i was on a hike and a guy was curious on the camera i was shooting with. As the conversation was done with, he was really considering dropping his canon for a panasonic, olympus, or even sony, the size/weight advantage, and features they had over traditional cameras.

Im not advocating for the mirrorless movement, but it should not be overlooked. At the same time pentax is not a mirrorless company(not yet anyways), they cater to the small dslr packed with features. Really not bad either way.
A micro four thirds sensor is smaller and so the stabilization for it is smaller than the stabilization for an APS-C or even a full frame sensor. Lenses designed for such a sensor are quite a bit smaller as well, particularly when they are focal lengths that are close to the registration distance.

It just seems as though small size, at least in the case of Pentax, has not been a great seller.
08-17-2017, 04:17 AM   #34
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I shoot a Fujifilm X-M1 mirrorless as well as my K3 (and numerous film cameras) and have found that it perfectly suits the purpose I wanted it for - a camera smaller and lighter than the K3 but still with excellent image quality. I would say it's replaced the K3 more than I originally expected it to. The X-M1 has no EVF but the rear screen is very good and is tiltable, so I often use it like a TLR, looking down from above, so no need for arm's length nonsense.

I used it for a year and a half only with adapted lenses (K, SR, M42) until I bought the 35mm f/1.4 Fuji lens, which I have found to be stunning with regards image quality. The only lens I've used that can go head-to-head in IQ with the DA 35mm limited. The small, very sharp and fast standard prime lets me get shots I couldn't get with the K3. I still use it frequently with adapted lenses but it's good to have an excellent AF option too.

Even with an adaptor, the X-M1 and a K-mount lens is smaller and lighter than the K3 with the same lens, and can be used in aperture priority.

I would stick to APS-C if for no other reason than to not complicate your life with other crop factors. Micro 4/3 cameras may be nice too but they're no cheaper, the IQ will be lower and the crop factor is greater. I'd also ignore any dead mounts such as NX and Nikon 1 (and maybe the Q??).

The batteries in mirrorless cameras are generally smaller and the screen/EVF eats power but my own experience is that the exposure, white balance and focus advantages of a MILC (they do all of those things better than a DSLR using OVF because the sensor really "sees" the image) are such that I need to take far fewer photos to get the image I want. The result of this is that the battery of the X-M1 lasts considerably longer than the battery in the K3 to get the same results.

Overall, my mirrorless experience has exceeded my expectations and I would thoroughly recommend mirrorless cameras as a secondary (or even primary) camera option. The things I like less are that Fuji lenses are all expensive and the cameras are too, when compared with the closest equivalents in the Pentax line-up. I bought mine very lightly used (in mint condition) for less than any decent DSLR in the same condition and from what I've seen, the prices of used mirrorless cameras seem to depreciate more than they do for DSLRs (no idea why).

Others have correctly pointed out that the small size and weight of MILCs is mainly due to the lack of a mirror box but the lenses themselves aren't any smaller. This becomes a big factor if you want to shoot larger lenses (especially telephotos) because everything becomes front-heavy. The ergonomics are obviously very different too and the K3 is miles ahead of the X-M1 there, but the ergonomics of the K3 are largely due to it's size - you can have great ergonomics or small size but they are mutually exclusive. If you're shooting with small primes then you will notice this a lot less, so it's important to bear in mind that your shooting style and subjects will affect what works for you and what doesn't.


Last edited by Jonathan Mac; 08-17-2017 at 04:24 AM.
08-17-2017, 05:47 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by ramseybuckeye Quote
I think about the mirrorless cameras occasionally. I had an original Q but it I could never just carry it alone, I had to carry my K-30 too and the the K-30 got most of the use since it outperformed the Q so much. Olympus, Fuji, Sony, all sort of fit the bill, but if I do any it will be for fast autofocus. I'm a little intrigued by the Sony a6000 as it supposedly has a fast autofocus, has an EFV, and the price is coming down. I'll have to do some research before I would buy any, Whatever I would get, I would have to get a couple of native lenses to use that autofocus, I don''t see a lot of reason to adopt K-mount lenses since I have Pentax cameras for those. I should probably sell some of the lenses I don't use that much
I purchased a Q-7 in December 2014. In May 2015, with the last {as recipients} commencement in my family coming, the Canon Rebel, which had been my primary camera, died. I had quickly purchased the Rebel just 18 months before when a previous Rebel had died and I had no genuine backup. This time I felt confident shopping around {I eventually found a K-30 at a very good price} because the Q-7 had already proven itself to me. This past November I took a train out to San Diego so I could be my daughter's co-driver on her trip back to Indiana for a new job. Taking lots of space would have been counter-productive, so I confidently brought my small Q-7 kit as my only camera.
08-19-2017, 07:17 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
Your first post was obviously dismissive towards mirrorless cameras, unless you think characterizing composing a photograph using a modern EVF as watching television is a reasonable assertion.

Whoa, I guess I underestimated the potential of upsetting mirrorless users with my remark. I apologize. The thing is, composing a photograph using even a modern EVF (and I've looked through several) does subjectively remind me of watching TV, if only a little. There are sure benefits, given the useful additional information such an EVF offers, but there are also downsides, most importantly a certain loss of immediacy, which I personally don't happen to like very much. This is how it feels to me. It may feel different to you, and to other mirrorless users who swear by their systems.


QuoteOriginally posted by Steve Beswick Quote
I may prefer an OVF, but once I went to a camera with an EVF, my keeper rate went through the roof. I'd be willing to bet you would hear that from a lot of people who have shot both.

Well, may be true for yourself, and could depend a little on the kind of photography we're talking about (portraiture? street?). Personally, I've found the by far most significant factors in raising my keeper rate to be shooting more and more deliberately, as well as taking the time to really explore what my then-current gear could do for me, honing my technique in other words, rather than upgrading or switching camera bodies.
08-19-2017, 07:39 AM   #37
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I have the (older) Olympus electronic viewfinder VF-3 on my m4/3.
I have to say it is quite OK for me, once I got used to it. And it slides out for compact carrying.

Why was the Pentax K-01 released without such an evf socket?
In my opinion that was a major omission that killed the usefulness of the K-01.
08-19-2017, 08:07 AM   #38
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Cameras as fashion statements... bizarre.
I really like my XG-1. Mirrorless with selectable EVF and 52x zoom (24mm to 1250mm equivalent.)
What I like about it is the 52x zoom.
But I'm a practical kind of guy. I pay little attention to what a camera looks like. I look at what it does.

I find it interesting that folks think of cameras like Star Wars toys or something. It's all about what you have (or had), not about the images. That's not really photography. That's some social thing.

08-19-2017, 09:41 AM - 4 Likes   #39
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I've recently dipped my toe in the mirrorless waters by way of the (probably dead) Nikon 1 mount. BandH had a hard underwater case for the J1/2 + basic kit lens on a clearance price of $50 for many months and I've been throwing bids out on ebay until one stuck on a white J1 + 10-30mm and 10mm/2.8 kit (white, so it reminds me of my Storm Trooper toys). So far, I'd say it's totally worth it for me. Even if the mount is dead, it won't make it work any worse than it does now, and assuming I keep getting along with it I'll look to pick up spare bodies as prices drop even more.

I've wanted an underwater camera for years, the quality of this seems a cut above the sample images I've seen from most of the compacts, with an obvious size disadvantage (the underwater case is comparable to a dslr + tremendously fat kit lens in size). Most of planned my underwater use will be in the spring (frogs are a key target), so but it seems pretty good so far.

I also plan to get a dumb k-mount adapter to use it for macro/close-up video and timelapses. No need to punish my k5iis with thousands of exposures if I'm going to reduce it down to HD video in resolution.

I hadn't really planned on it, but it's been seeing use as a pocketable camera with pretty great quality. I'd pit the sensor against my k100d, and I was always happy with my k100d. My k5iis is wayyyy nicer to use, but for impromtu photos of nieces/nephews, or random outings where I'm not really out to take photos, the J1 easily several cuts above my cell phone for both quality and ease of use (I like buttons and fight with touchscreens). No EVF but the screen manages to be surprisingly workable even on sunny days.

I recently took it on a day trip to an art gallery (in "the big city") and I'm developing a joy of taking pictures of people taking pictures in galleries and the the silent operation + small size is fantastic.



08-20-2017, 03:26 AM   #40
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Hi all, thanks for all the inputs.

After some more painstaking research (watching Youtube videos, hehehe) I have come to the conclusion that the X-Pro 1 and 2 are nice but not for me. That nifty optical viewfinder is only for framing shots. You can't use it for focussing since this is not a true rangefinder like an old school Leica. Putting all the mechanical bits and pieces needed for that into a digital body at a reasonable price would be a technological masterpiece.

You do get a rectangle that changes according to focal length for framing the shot. This is great for photojournalism since you can see what is happening outside the frame and react to that. For focussing and exposure you have to trust that the camera is getting it right.The catch is that this only works with Fujifilm lenses. The dumb lens adapters means that there is no data for the body to work with. So, with K mount lenses it is EVF or live view only. No need for that OVF if you are only going to use manual focus, then.

Getting an X-Pro will also open the door to unneeded temptations. You know how it goes. I will just get the kit zoom lens to get started. Then I will develop a need for a Fuji Xmount 85mm because portraits. After that I will only need a fast(ish) 35mm because low light wide shots. And then it will be a 24mm because 35mm is not wide enough. You know how it goes...

An XE1 or XE2 body with K mount adapter is starting to look like a good idea. It is just that there are other nice deals on my radar as well. Such as a K-r. Or a K10D that comes bundled with other good stuff. Decisions, decisions...
08-20-2017, 10:40 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
Hi all, thanks for all the inputs.

After some more painstaking research (watching Youtube videos, hehehe) I have come to the conclusion that the X-Pro 1 and 2 are nice but not for me. That nifty optical viewfinder is only for framing shots. You can't use it for focussing since this is not a true rangefinder like an old school Leica. Putting all the mechanical bits and pieces needed for that into a digital body at a reasonable price would be a technological masterpiece.

You do get a rectangle that changes according to focal length for framing the shot. This is great for photojournalism since you can see what is happening outside the frame and react to that. For focussing and exposure you have to trust that the camera is getting it right.The catch is that this only works with Fujifilm lenses. The dumb lens adapters means that there is no data for the body to work with. So, with K mount lenses it is EVF or live view only. No need for that OVF if you are only going to use manual focus, then.

Getting an X-Pro will also open the door to unneeded temptations. You know how it goes. I will just get the kit zoom lens to get started. Then I will develop a need for a Fuji Xmount 85mm because portraits. After that I will only need a fast(ish) 35mm because low light wide shots. And then it will be a 24mm because 35mm is not wide enough. You know how it goes...

An XE1 or XE2 body with K mount adapter is starting to look like a good idea. It is just that there are other nice deals on my radar as well. Such as a K-r. Or a K10D that comes bundled with other good stuff. Decisions, decisions...
In a similar vein to the XE line, perhaps look at a Sony NEX-6? They can be had for a very low price these days. Whatever you do, there really isn't a wrong choice, with the only caveat being this: If you don't actually own a mirrorless camera for a while, you will never really know what it's like.
08-20-2017, 12:37 PM   #42
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The Sony NEX-6 looks like an excellent choice. It is going onto my shopping list. Thanks for letting me know, it wasn't on my radar.
08-20-2017, 02:54 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
An XE1 or XE2 body with K mount adapter is starting to look like a good idea. It is
These 2 have first or 2nd generation processors but similar/same(?) sensor.

The menus are easy, going with $$$ony you get difficult menus.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
Fuji Xmount 85mm
QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
24mm
Good luck finding these 2!

QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
Getting an X-Pro will also open the door to unneeded temptations
The glass is superb!

QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
Fuji lenses are all expensive and the cameras are too
Not really,first generation bodies are still available new and prices are OK....The 2 vario zooms(16-50/50-230) are plastic mounts but produce high quality images.The 27mm F2.8 is great for street....with these 3 lenses and a first generation body,the cost isn't high.
08-20-2017, 03:25 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
with these 3 lenses and a first generation body,the cost isn't high.
A *ist can be found for $50 too, but I'm not sure that's relevant to anything.
08-24-2017, 12:25 PM   #45
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A bit of a bonus with a mirrorless body is that one can overcome the crop factor that comes with APS-C sensors. All that is needed is focal length reducer. It is the inverse of a teleconverter and works by shrinking the image circle. That means that a 20mm lens is now an ultra wide angle again. As an added bonus, one gains an f-stop as well. Making the image smaller also concentrates the light, you see.

The downside is that these focal length reducers are not cheap. Just how much IQ is affected by adding more glass between lens and sensor is an unknown as well. I suppose that one should get the best one, but I will cross that bridge when I get there.
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