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01-22-2018, 10:05 AM   #16
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As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. Unless one has their nose pressed against a 4K display there is little difference between a low-compression JPEG and the proposed replacements. (The example JPEG in the article is not representative or typical.) If a worthy successor becomes apparent with obvious benefits to both creators and end-users, tool and application/device support will follow. A good example might be PNG (mentioned above). I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is and how it is used, but tool and application/device support is ubiquitous and has been since soon after the standard was stable. Strangely enough, GIF is still with us...go figure.

I would expect that adoption will be slow even if a good replacement is defined. After all, who wants to generate/publish content not knowing if the intended audience will be able to see it?


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01-22-2018, 10:19 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. Unless one has their nose pressed against a 4K display there is little difference between a low-compression JPEG and the proposed replacements. (The example JPEG in the article is not representative or typical.) If a worthy successor becomes apparent with obvious benefits to both creators and end-users, tool and application/device support will follow. A good example might be PNG (mentioned above). I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is and how it is used, but tool and application/device support is ubiquitous and has been since soon after the standard was stable. Strangely enough, GIF is still with us...go figure.

I would expect that adoption will be slow even if a good replacement is defined. After all, who wants to generate/publish content not knowing if the intended audience will be able to see it?


Steve
My feelings exactly. 'So, you have a new technology, now make me care."
01-22-2018, 11:44 AM   #18
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My reason for using JPEG is the compatibility and wide spread use of them. I don't see that changing in the near future. If image quality is a concern, I will use Tiff compression. Like others have pointed out 8 bit JPEG 2000 has never caught on. Not really sure why. Just my two cents.
01-22-2018, 12:14 PM   #19
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I can send Jpeg and Tiff without worrying about portability; why break that agreement? I think file size may be an issue for those whose store on cloud. I store data locally. Hard disk is getting cheaper and cheaper. I use low-spec disk drives for archiving because they are cheaper. Also if you develop the discipline of I turning off the external hard-drive after fetching the file, drive will lost for many years.

01-22-2018, 12:29 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by MadMathMind Quote
And for whatever reason, no browser supported JPEG2000 and still doesn't. I don't think Windows even has built-in support for viewing. As a result, it's pretty much worthless. .... . Without browser support, it's going nowhere.
You are aware that Google and Mozilla, the leaders in this initiative, write browsers? And those browsers (Chrome and Firefox) between them dominate people's browsing? Google Chrome is the dominant web browser on both desktop and mobile: CHART - Business Insider

As the linked bar-chart shows, Windows' Internet Explorer is an also-ran among browsers, and Microsoft does not rule the IT world any more.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. ......... I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is
On this site I'd think more than 1-in-10, but generally on other sites I doubt that i-in-10 know what jpeg is, let alone PNG, but they are still using it. Adoption will be at the pace that web developers use it for their graphics, and camera makers (and supporting software) adopt it. Neither browsers nor Joe Public will be a problem.

Last edited by Lord Lucan; 01-22-2018 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Clarity
01-22-2018, 12:54 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
Google Chrome is the dominant web browser on both desktop and mobile: CHART - Business Insider
That is mostly due to Android devices and PC bundling with Chrome set as the default browser.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
Windows Explorer is an also-ran among browsers
Windows Explorer is not a browser* and never has been. Edge is the browser on Windows 10 with Internet Explorer (aka IE) being the browser on older Windows versions.


Steve

* Windows Explorer was a file manager with additional runtime shell management tasks in most Windows versions prior to Windows 8. It is currently called "File Explorer".
01-22-2018, 01:06 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Windows Explorer is not a browser* and never has been.
Yes, you are right. I did know that. It was hasty typing on my part (dinner was ready) and I came back to correct it, which I now have. The refreshed the screen showed me your comment then. Apologies.

---------- Post added 01-22-18 at 01:22 PM ----------

I have found a better link with a chart distinguishing between IE and Edge :-

? Internet browser market share 2012-2017 | Statistic
01-22-2018, 05:01 PM - 1 Like   #23
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That's it, i'm going back to TIFF.

The HEIC files look cleaner - there are still some artefacts visible in the AV1 files. To me the real test would be to see not just how they manage with high compression - but low compression, how efficient AV1 and HEIC are compared to Jpeg.


Last edited by Digitalis; 01-23-2018 at 08:47 AM.
01-22-2018, 05:33 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
That's it, i'm going back to TIFF.

The HEIC do files look cleaner - there are still some artefacts visible in the AV1 files. To me the real test would be to see not just how they manage with high compression - but low compression, how efficient AV1 and HEIC are compared to Jpeg.
What he said ^ ^ ^


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01-22-2018, 05:48 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
Yes, you are right. I did know that. It was hasty typing on my part (dinner was ready) and I came back to correct it, which I now have. The refreshed the screen showed me your comment then. Apologies.
No apologies needed. I was being a little snarky.


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01-23-2018, 12:46 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
but they also belong to and contribute 6 or so engineers to Linux as the underpinnings of their OS.
Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems (and OS X is unix certified), they don't share code.
01-23-2018, 03:55 AM   #27
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I think jpeg has achieved dominance for the same reason that mp3 format was so dominant in music. The files were small (depending on the amount of compression), it was an open source format, and frankly, except for a few audiophiles, most people just didn't care that the quality wasn't perfect. For most of the images on line, there would be absolutely no benefit to using a higher quality file format. The limitations aren't because jpegs don't have enough color depth, but because the cell phones and the users skills are producing images that are suboptimal in appearance.

I would like it if there was a second generation jpeg that came out that was better, but I don't know that there are many people who would actually care either way.
01-23-2018, 04:17 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Apple .... also belong to and contribute 6 or so engineers to Linux as the underpinnings of their OS.
QuoteOriginally posted by automorphism Quote
Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems .... they don't share code.
I'm not sure if normhead meant that Apple underpins Linux, or that Linux underpins Apple's operating system, OS X. Neither is true. There is certainly Apple stuff in Linux; eg every Linux distribution I know uses the Apple printing system, CUPS [Common Unix Printing System]. It is also likely that OS X uses elements from Linux, Linux being open source. But not underpinning either way. They are two different and parallel evolutions of UNIX.
01-23-2018, 04:36 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by automorphism Quote
Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems (and OS X is unix certified), they don't share code.
Short and to-the-point explanation here:
Apple open-sourced the kernel of iOS and macOS for ARM processors | TechCrunch
01-23-2018, 08:42 AM   #30
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It wil be interesting to see if Apple's adoption of HEIC on the iPhone forces Samsung/Google/Android to do the same as part of the long-running competition for "best smartphone images." And then it will be interesting to see how that affects standalone cameras.

Currently, there a massive gap in image quality between compact 8-bit JPEGs and huge deep-bit TIFFs or RAWs. There's nothing in between that has any amount of adoption.

Either HEIC or AV1 could step into the size & quality gap between JPEG and TIFF/RAW. The differences between HEIF/HEIC and AV1 seem minimal. In that one test image, HEIC looked better to me but the differences were minimal compared to the massive quality upgrade from JPEG.

Apple's use of HEIC on the iPhone proves that portable consumer devices do have the CPU/GPU resources to do HEIC encoding on a timely basis. That's less clear for AV1. What's especially tricky is whether standalone cameras have the CPU/GPU resources to implement either HEIC or AV1. Apple's iPhones contain a tremendous amount of processing power -- seemingly much more than is found in high-end standalone cameras.

The shift to HEIC or AV1 might also force standalone camera makers to upgrade their processors to avoid further erosion of standalone camera sales if smartphones are producing better SOOC images because standalone camera's are hobbled by the inferior JPEG file format.

Interesting times!
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