Replacement for jpeg ?

stevebrot · 01-22-2018, 10:05 AM

As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. Unless one has their nose pressed against a 4K display there is little difference between a low-compression JPEG and the proposed replacements. (The example JPEG in the article is not representative or typical.) If a worthy successor becomes apparent with obvious benefits to both creators and end-users, tool and application/device support will follow. A good example might be PNG (mentioned above). I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is and how it is used, but tool and application/device support is ubiquitous and has been since soon after the standard was stable. Strangely enough, GIF is still with us...go figure.

I would expect that adoption will be slow even if a good replacement is defined. After all, who wants to generate/publish content not knowing if the intended audience will be able to see it?

Steve

normhead · 01-22-2018, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. Unless one has their nose pressed against a 4K display there is little difference between a low-compression JPEG and the proposed replacements. (The example JPEG in the article is not representative or typical.) If a worthy successor becomes apparent with obvious benefits to both creators and end-users, tool and application/device support will follow. A good example might be PNG (mentioned above). I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is and how it is used, but tool and application/device support is ubiquitous and has been since soon after the standard was stable. Strangely enough, GIF is still with us...go figure.

I would expect that adoption will be slow even if a good replacement is defined. After all, who wants to generate/publish content not knowing if the intended audience will be able to see it?

Steve

My feelings exactly. 'So, you have a new technology, now make me care."

**macman24054** · 01-22-2018, 11:44 AM

My reason for using JPEG is the compatibility and wide spread use of them. I don't see that changing in the near future. If image quality is a concern, I will use Tiff compression. Like others have pointed out 8 bit JPEG 2000 has never caught on. Not really sure why. Just my two cents.

pentaxfall · 01-22-2018, 12:14 PM

I can send Jpeg and Tiff without worrying about portability; why break that agreement? I think file size may be an issue for those whose store on cloud. I store data locally. Hard disk is getting cheaper and cheaper. I use low-spec disk drives for archiving because they are cheaper. Also if you develop the discipline of I turning off the external hard-drive after fetching the file, drive will lost for many years.

Lord Lucan · 01-22-2018, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by MadMathMind

And for whatever reason, no browser supported JPEG2000 and still doesn't. I don't think Windows even has built-in support for viewing. As a result, it's pretty much worthless. .... . Without browser support, it's going nowhere.

You are aware that Google and Mozilla, the leaders in this initiative, write browsers? And those browsers (Chrome and Firefox) between them dominate people's browsing? Google Chrome is the dominant web browser on both desktop and mobile: CHART - Business Insider

As the linked bar-chart shows, Windows' Internet Explorer is an also-ran among browsers, and Microsoft does not rule the IT world any more.

Originally posted by stevebrot

As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. ......... I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is

On this site I'd think more than 1-in-10, but generally on other sites I doubt that i-in-10 know what jpeg is, let alone PNG, but they are still using it. Adoption will be at the pace that web developers use it for their graphics, and camera makers (and supporting software) adopt it. Neither browsers nor Joe Public will be a problem.

stevebrot · 01-22-2018, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Lord Lucan

Google Chrome is the dominant web browser on both desktop and mobile: CHART - Business Insider

That is mostly due to Android devices and PC bundling with Chrome set as the default browser.

Originally posted by Lord Lucan

Windows Explorer is an also-ran among browsers

Windows Explorer is not a browser* and never has been. Edge is the browser on Windows 10 with Internet Explorer (aka IE) being the browser on older Windows versions.

Steve

* Windows Explorer was a file manager with additional runtime shell management tasks in most Windows versions prior to Windows 8. It is currently called "File Explorer".

Lord Lucan · 01-22-2018, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Windows Explorer is not a browser* and never has been.

Yes, you are right. I did know that. It was hasty typing on my part (dinner was ready) and I came back to correct it, which I now have. The refreshed the screen showed me your comment then. Apologies.

---------- Post added 01-22-18 at 01:22 PM ----------

I have found a better link with a chart distinguishing between IE and Edge :-

? Internet browser market share 2012-2017 | Statistic

**Digitalis** · 01-22-2018, 05:01 PM - **1 Like**

That's it, i'm going back to TIFF.

The HEIC files look cleaner - there are still some artefacts visible in the AV1 files. To me the real test would be to see not just how they manage with high compression - but low compression, how efficient AV1 and HEIC are compared to Jpeg.

stevebrot · 01-22-2018, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

That's it, i'm going back to TIFF.

The HEIC do files look cleaner - there are still some artefacts visible in the AV1 files. To me the real test would be to see not just how they manage with high compression - but low compression, how efficient AV1 and HEIC are compared to Jpeg.

What he said ^ ^ ^

Steve

stevebrot · 01-22-2018, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Lord Lucan

Yes, you are right. I did know that. It was hasty typing on my part (dinner was ready) and I came back to correct it, which I now have. The refreshed the screen showed me your comment then. Apologies.

No apologies needed. I was being a little snarky.

Steve

automorphism · 01-23-2018, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by normhead

but they also belong to and contribute 6 or so engineers to Linux as the underpinnings of their OS.

Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems (and OS X is unix certified), they don't share code.

**Rondec** · 01-23-2018, 03:55 AM

I think jpeg has achieved dominance for the same reason that mp3 format was so dominant in music. The files were small (depending on the amount of compression), it was an open source format, and frankly, except for a few audiophiles, most people just didn't care that the quality wasn't perfect. For most of the images on line, there would be absolutely no benefit to using a higher quality file format. The limitations aren't because jpegs don't have enough color depth, but because the cell phones and the users skills are producing images that are suboptimal in appearance.

I would like it if there was a second generation jpeg that came out that was better, but I don't know that there are many people who would actually care either way.

Lord Lucan · 01-23-2018, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Apple .... also belong to and contribute 6 or so engineers to Linux as the underpinnings of their OS.

Originally posted by automorphism

Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems .... they don't share code.

I'm not sure if normhead meant that Apple underpins Linux, or that Linux underpins Apple's operating system, OS X. Neither is true. There is certainly Apple stuff in Linux; eg every Linux distribution I know uses the Apple printing system, CUPS [Common Unix Printing System]. It is also likely that OS X uses elements from Linux, Linux being open source. But not underpinning either way. They are two different and parallel evolutions of UNIX.

gatorguy · 01-23-2018, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by automorphism

Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems (and OS X is unix certified), they don't share code.

Short and to-the-point explanation here:
Apple open-sourced the kernel of iOS and macOS for ARM processors | TechCrunch

photoptimist · 01-23-2018, 08:42 AM

It wil be interesting to see if Apple's adoption of HEIC on the iPhone forces Samsung/Google/Android to do the same as part of the long-running competition for "best smartphone images." And then it will be interesting to see how that affects standalone cameras.

Currently, there a massive gap in image quality between compact 8-bit JPEGs and huge deep-bit TIFFs or RAWs. There's nothing in between that has any amount of adoption.

Either HEIC or AV1 could step into the size & quality gap between JPEG and TIFF/RAW. The differences between HEIF/HEIC and AV1 seem minimal. In that one test image, HEIC looked better to me but the differences were minimal compared to the massive quality upgrade from JPEG.

Apple's use of HEIC on the iPhone proves that portable consumer devices do have the CPU/GPU resources to do HEIC encoding on a timely basis. That's less clear for AV1. What's especially tricky is whether standalone cameras have the CPU/GPU resources to implement either HEIC or AV1. Apple's iPhones contain a tremendous amount of processing power -- seemingly much more than is found in high-end standalone cameras.

The shift to HEIC or AV1 might also force standalone camera makers to upgrade their processors to avoid further erosion of standalone camera sales if smartphones are producing better SOOC images because standalone camera's are hobbled by the inferior JPEG file format.

Interesting times!

01-22-2018, 12:29 PM	#20
Lord Lucan Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: South Wales Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,960 Original Poster	Originally posted by MadMathMind And for whatever reason, no browser supported JPEG2000 and still doesn't. I don't think Windows even has built-in support for viewing. As a result, it's pretty much worthless. .... . Without browser support, it's going nowhere. You are aware that Google and Mozilla, the leaders in this initiative, write browsers? And those browsers (Chrome and Firefox) between them dominate people's browsing? Google Chrome is the dominant web browser on both desktop and mobile: CHART - Business Insider As the linked bar-chart shows, Windows' Internet Explorer is an also-ran among browsers, and Microsoft does not rule the IT world any more. Originally posted by stevebrot As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. ......... I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is On this site I'd think more than 1-in-10, but generally on other sites I doubt that i-in-10 know what jpeg is, let alone PNG, but they are still using it. Adoption will be at the pace that web developers use it for their graphics, and camera makers (and supporting software) adopt it. Neither browsers nor Joe Public will be a problem. Last edited by Lord Lucan; 01-22-2018 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Clarity

01-22-2018, 05:01 PM - 1 Like	#23
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	That's it, i'm going back to TIFF. The HEIC files look cleaner - there are still some artefacts visible in the AV1 files. To me the real test would be to see not just how they manage with high compression - but low compression, how efficient AV1 and HEIC are compared to Jpeg. Last edited by Digitalis; 01-23-2018 at 08:47 AM.

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01-22-2018, 10:05 AM	#16
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. Unless one has their nose pressed against a 4K display there is little difference between a low-compression JPEG and the proposed replacements. (The example JPEG in the article is not representative or typical.) If a worthy successor becomes apparent with obvious benefits to both creators and end-users, tool and application/device support will follow. A good example might be PNG (mentioned above). I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is and how it is used, but tool and application/device support is ubiquitous and has been since soon after the standard was stable. Strangely enough, GIF is still with us...go figure. I would expect that adoption will be slow even if a good replacement is defined. After all, who wants to generate/publish content not knowing if the intended audience will be able to see it? Steve

01-22-2018, 10:19 AM	#17
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by stevebrot As noted above...People don't care. Not only do they not care, but they have no particular reason not too and that includes both content creators and end-users. Unless one has their nose pressed against a 4K display there is little difference between a low-compression JPEG and the proposed replacements. (The example JPEG in the article is not representative or typical.) If a worthy successor becomes apparent with obvious benefits to both creators and end-users, tool and application/device support will follow. A good example might be PNG (mentioned above). I suspect that only one-in-ten users on this site even know what PNG is and how it is used, but tool and application/device support is ubiquitous and has been since soon after the standard was stable. Strangely enough, GIF is still with us...go figure. I would expect that adoption will be slow even if a good replacement is defined. After all, who wants to generate/publish content not knowing if the intended audience will be able to see it? Steve My feelings exactly. 'So, you have a new technology, now make me care."

01-22-2018, 11:44 AM	#18
macman24054 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Axton, VA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 461	My reason for using JPEG is the compatibility and wide spread use of them. I don't see that changing in the near future. If image quality is a concern, I will use Tiff compression. Like others have pointed out 8 bit JPEG 2000 has never caught on. Not really sure why. Just my two cents.

01-22-2018, 12:14 PM	#19
pentaxfall Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Bangalore, India Posts: 581	I can send Jpeg and Tiff without worrying about portability; why break that agreement? I think file size may be an issue for those whose store on cloud. I store data locally. Hard disk is getting cheaper and cheaper. I use low-spec disk drives for archiving because they are cheaper. Also if you develop the discipline of I turning off the external hard-drive after fetching the file, drive will lost for many years.

01-22-2018, 12:54 PM	#21
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Lord Lucan Google Chrome is the dominant web browser on both desktop and mobile: CHART - Business Insider That is mostly due to Android devices and PC bundling with Chrome set as the default browser. Originally posted by Lord Lucan Windows Explorer is an also-ran among browsers Windows Explorer is not a browser* and never has been. Edge is the browser on Windows 10 with Internet Explorer (aka IE) being the browser on older Windows versions. Steve * Windows Explorer was a file manager with additional runtime shell management tasks in most Windows versions prior to Windows 8. It is currently called "File Explorer".

01-22-2018, 01:06 PM	#22
Lord Lucan Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: South Wales Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,960 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot Windows Explorer is not a browser* and never has been. Yes, you are right. I did know that. It was hasty typing on my part (dinner was ready) and I came back to correct it, which I now have. The refreshed the screen showed me your comment then. Apologies. ---------- Post added 01-22-18 at 01:22 PM ---------- I have found a better link with a chart distinguishing between IE and Edge :- ? Internet browser market share 2012-2017 \| Statistic

01-22-2018, 05:33 PM	#24
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Digitalis That's it, i'm going back to TIFF. The HEIC do files look cleaner - there are still some artefacts visible in the AV1 files. To me the real test would be to see not just how they manage with high compression - but low compression, how efficient AV1 and HEIC are compared to Jpeg. What he said ^ ^ ^ Steve

01-22-2018, 05:48 PM	#25
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Lord Lucan Yes, you are right. I did know that. It was hasty typing on my part (dinner was ready) and I came back to correct it, which I now have. The refreshed the screen showed me your comment then. Apologies. No apologies needed. I was being a little snarky. Steve

01-23-2018, 12:46 AM	#26
automorphism Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Ontario, Canada Photos: Albums Posts: 791	Originally posted by normhead but they also belong to and contribute 6 or so engineers to Linux as the underpinnings of their OS. Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems (and OS X is unix certified), they don't share code.

01-23-2018, 03:55 AM	#27
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	I think jpeg has achieved dominance for the same reason that mp3 format was so dominant in music. The files were small (depending on the amount of compression), it was an open source format, and frankly, except for a few audiophiles, most people just didn't care that the quality wasn't perfect. For most of the images on line, there would be absolutely no benefit to using a higher quality file format. The limitations aren't because jpegs don't have enough color depth, but because the cell phones and the users skills are producing images that are suboptimal in appearance. I would like it if there was a second generation jpeg that came out that was better, but I don't know that there are many people who would actually care either way.

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01-23-2018, 04:17 AM	#28
Lord Lucan Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: South Wales Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,960 Original Poster	Originally posted by normhead Apple .... also belong to and contribute 6 or so engineers to Linux as the underpinnings of their OS. Originally posted by automorphism Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems .... they don't share code. I'm not sure if normhead meant that Apple underpins Linux, or that Linux underpins Apple's operating system, OS X. Neither is true. There is certainly Apple stuff in Linux; eg every Linux distribution I know uses the Apple printing system, CUPS [Common Unix Printing System]. It is also likely that OS X uses elements from Linux, Linux being open source. But not underpinning either way. They are two different and parallel evolutions of UNIX.

01-23-2018, 04:36 AM	#29
gatorguy Moderator Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Central Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,092	Originally posted by automorphism Are you saying that Linux is the underlying kernel of OS X? If so, that's absolutely not true. OS X's kernel is Darwin and was based on Mach and BSD. Although both share similar features on the virtue of being based on unix-like systems (and OS X is unix certified), they don't share code. Short and to-the-point explanation here: Apple open-sourced the kernel of iOS and macOS for ARM processors \| TechCrunch

01-23-2018, 08:42 AM	#30
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,121	It wil be interesting to see if Apple's adoption of HEIC on the iPhone forces Samsung/Google/Android to do the same as part of the long-running competition for "best smartphone images." And then it will be interesting to see how that affects standalone cameras. Currently, there a massive gap in image quality between compact 8-bit JPEGs and huge deep-bit TIFFs or RAWs. There's nothing in between that has any amount of adoption. Either HEIC or AV1 could step into the size & quality gap between JPEG and TIFF/RAW. The differences between HEIF/HEIC and AV1 seem minimal. In that one test image, HEIC looked better to me but the differences were minimal compared to the massive quality upgrade from JPEG. Apple's use of HEIC on the iPhone proves that portable consumer devices do have the CPU/GPU resources to do HEIC encoding on a timely basis. That's less clear for AV1. What's especially tricky is whether standalone cameras have the CPU/GPU resources to implement either HEIC or AV1. Apple's iPhones contain a tremendous amount of processing power -- seemingly much more than is found in high-end standalone cameras. The shift to HEIC or AV1 might also force standalone camera makers to upgrade their processors to avoid further erosion of standalone camera sales if smartphones are producing better SOOC images because standalone camera's are hobbled by the inferior JPEG file format. Interesting times!