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06-01-2018, 04:33 PM - 1 Like   #1
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F-Stoppers do it again ... now the DoF myth.

No, Larger Sensors Do Not Produce Shallower Depth of Field | Fstoppers



06-01-2018, 04:48 PM   #2
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I am an ignorant newb, Is this good info or are you taking the Pi** again?
06-01-2018, 04:56 PM - 2 Likes   #3
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Yeah, good info, SG.

When 'experts' show reduced depth of field they've also moved the camera closer to the subject to compensate for FF's wider field of view - they haven't controlled variables.

If you hadn't seen it in this thread, they also did one busting the 'tele lenses compress' myth.
06-01-2018, 05:03 PM   #4
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I saw all the hubbub about it but had not had time to watch that one yet. This one is probably more important to me as far as a knowledge base than the zoom controversy.

PS We need more than 1300 posts a day, so get posting! Tell us where you find all the pretty models you shoot!

06-01-2018, 05:10 PM - 1 Like   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by SSGGeezer Quote
I saw all the hubbub about it but had not had time to watch that one yet. This one is probably more important to me as far as a knowledge base than the zoom controversy.
Yeah, I've even got nice bokeh on a 20mm Voigtlander on the K-1.

The key is with whatever camera you're shooting to get as close as you can with the longest lens and the widest aperture with the background as far away as possible.

QuoteOriginally posted by SSGGeezer Quote
PS We need more than 1300 posts a day, so get posting! Tell us where you find all the pretty models you shoot!
(Laughs). Education's been important to me, so I'm always signing up for classes and group shoots where somebody else does the organizing. There must be local Meetups or clubs in your area - New England, right?



06-01-2018, 05:36 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
(Laughs). Education's been important to me, so I'm always signing up for classes and group shoots where somebody else does the organizing. There must be local Meetups or clubs in your area - New England, right?
I have limited funds for classes and even if I don't live in the middle of nowhere, you may be able to see it from here!. 22 Km to the nearest grocery store, 120 to the nearest Whole Foods, only 45-50Km to Walmart, (where I don't shop, ever.) So I drive 70 KM twice a month for major shopping at the Air Force Commissary in Bangor that I can use since I am retired from the Marine Corps and Army. Then just small stuff at the grocery stores and most other foods from our nearby farmer's market for meat and cheeses, greens and goat yogurt. Wife loves Lamb while I prefer beef and goat meat. The Jamaican Food guy does an amazing curry goat at this market as well as a great jerk chicken. We always try to go hungry and share the goat and a beef patty.

I will have to look at the adult education flyer that comes around next time. or go look on Craig's list. There is a place that teaches basic DSLR usage and PP but the class is like over $3K USD so that is a no go. Same with Hunt's photo classes, they are pricey also.
06-01-2018, 06:21 PM   #7
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That's a really helpful video. I haven't seen the other one on lens compression yet, but I will soon. I wonder how many of these myths are created by those who are removed from the original exploration. That is, I suspect that those who made the suggestion that the dof was different on different sensors meant that to be an 'effective' difference due to the changes to gear, position, or technique that would have to be employed by the photographer to recreate a scene with a crop sensor.

06-01-2018, 06:27 PM - 1 Like   #8
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Once again a mildly dishonest slight of hand providing mildly misleading information.

The rule is larger sensors produce shallower death of field if you have the same field of view.
They left off the "same field of view part." amdthen pretend like it's new knowledge, they are right and everyone else is wrong. It's dishonest.

So there are two things you can do. Use a shorter lens on the small sensor camera, or back up the full frame. Both produce shallower depth of field on the full frame.
There's one more thing you can do, take a different picture. Shoot both from the same position which creates an entirely different image, and that's the case they address.

It's simply more clickbait nonsense. It sure would be nice if these guys would actually teach people how to use their cameras instead fo coming up with these ridiculous bar bet issues. Anyway, I'm out, they get clicks on their site for posting this nonsense, I get nothing for pointing out the flaws in their logic.

If anyone else wants to post stuff from this site, I'm boycotting the thread. They don't teach photography, They teach debating useless points.

The simple fact is, you frame an image, you want the same image with two different formats, with the same framing and ƒ-stop the FF will have shallower depth of field. Of what possible value is claiming the DoF will be the same if the image isn't the same? It has no value, it's nonsense.
06-01-2018, 07:36 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
When 'experts' show reduced depth of field they've also moved the camera closer to the subject to compensate for FF's wider field of view - they haven't controlled variables.
I usually look at the 'expert flaw' as not being explicit about what variables are changing and what aren't. Clear that up and it's usually golden. So many arguments over technical things here have been between people who don't actually disagree, they are just working from different assumed (and unstated) conditions.

I did not click on that link though.
06-01-2018, 07:59 PM - 2 Likes   #10
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I agree with Normhead there. This is an extremely stupid debate. If the image doesn't look the same then there's no point comparing them. You may choose to keep subject distance the same, or even the lens used, but if the field of view is not the same then you're playing a dishonest game.

At the end of the day, I'm not going to brag about my KP having thinner DoF than my K-1 because every single equivalent looking image taken with the K-1 will have more out of focus areas.
06-01-2018, 10:30 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by SSGGeezer Quote
I have limited funds for classes and even if I don't live in the middle of nowhere, you may be able to see it from here!. 22 Km to the nearest grocery store, 120 to the nearest Whole Foods, only 45-50Km to Walmart, (where I don't shop, ever.) So I drive 70 KM twice a month for major shopping at the Air Force Commissary in Bangor that I can use since I am retired from the Marine Corps and Army. Then just small stuff at the grocery stores and most other foods from our nearby farmer's market for meat and cheeses, greens and goat yogurt. Wife loves Lamb while I prefer beef and goat meat. The Jamaican Food guy does an amazing curry goat at this market as well as a great jerk chicken. We always try to go hungry and share the goat and a beef patty.

I will have to look at the adult education flyer that comes around next time. or go look on Craig's list. There is a place that teaches basic DSLR usage and PP but the class is like over $3K USD so that is a no go. Same with Hunt's photo classes, they are pricey also.
You might want tto check stuff out in Portland, instead, since it seems like you might be about as far from there as Bangor. They probably have classes at Maine College of Art (?) or maybe The Bakery Collective has something. Back in December 2017 they were still building out their new space, but I am not sure of the status right now. They may have a good community in that area, which though a bit far, might be worth checking out.

Bakery Photo Collective Returns To Portland
06-01-2018, 10:36 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by SSGGeezer Quote
I have limited funds for classes and even if I don't live in the middle of nowhere, you may be able to see it from here!. 22 Km to the nearest grocery store, 120 to the nearest Whole Foods, only 45-50Km to Walmart, (where I don't shop, ever.) So I drive 70 KM twice a month for major shopping at the Air Force Commissary in Bangor that I can use since I am retired from the Marine Corps and Army. Then just small stuff at the grocery stores and most other foods from our nearby farmer's market for meat and cheeses, greens and goat yogurt. Wife loves Lamb while I prefer beef and goat meat. The Jamaican Food guy does an amazing curry goat at this market as well as a great jerk chicken. We always try to go hungry and share the goat and a beef patty.

I will have to look at the adult education flyer that comes around next time. or go look on Craig's list. There is a place that teaches basic DSLR usage and PP but the class is like over $3K USD so that is a no go. Same with Hunt's photo classes, they are pricey also.
Take a look at Coursera. They may have more than one class on Photography

Photography Basics and Beyond: From Smartphone to DSLR | Coursera
06-01-2018, 10:59 PM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The rule is larger sensors produce shallower death of field if you have the same field of view.
They left off the "same field of view part." amdthen pretend like it's new knowledge, they are right and everyone else is wrong. It's dishonest.
QuoteOriginally posted by HarisF1 Quote
I agree with Normhead there. This is an extremely stupid debate. If the image doesn't look the same then there's no point comparing them. You may choose to keep subject distance the same, or even the lens used, but if the field of view is not the same then you're playing a dishonest game.
Did you guys watch the video? They covered everything you are complaining about. They even had some good diagrams that show how depth of field and blur/bokeh works.
06-01-2018, 11:46 PM - 1 Like   #14
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They explain it well and I agree that FF does not reduce DOF of a lens as such.
However that said, in typical use the effect of using a FF with the same equivalent field of view (when you a select a wide angle then you expect it to be wide on that camera regardless of what mm you need to achieve it) is that you will experience a shallower DOF than APS-C (with the same field of view) . I found it quite noticeable when moving from my K-5 to K-1. So IMO comparing typical APS-C versus FF DOF with equivalent fields of view is a also a valid thing to do.
But thats been covered in the video anyway.
06-02-2018, 12:56 AM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Once again a mildly dishonest slight of hand providing mildly misleading information.

Mildly misleading? I thought you would be leaping and swearing about this trite garbage.

As for me, I just smile and pour myself another glass of Arbelour 25Y.O. I am all too happy to help the ignorant bury their own heads in concrete.
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