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Kozlok · 08-23-2018, 07:05 AM - **1 Like**

This whole thread reminds me of going to the argument clinic, just to wander into abuse by mistake.

You Tube

**RobA_Oz** · 08-23-2018, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Kozlok

This whole thread reminds me of going to the argument clinic, just to wander into abuse by mistake.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrbOVeRonQ

A classic. Always good for a laugh.

biz-engineer · 08-23-2018, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

A classic. Always good for a laugh.

Sorry but you are off topic, only arguments accepted and considered by the OP.

**RobA_Oz** · 08-23-2018, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Sorry but you are off topic, only arguments accepted and considered by the OP.

No they aren’t!

**BigMackCam** · 08-23-2018, 07:43 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

No they aren’t!

You'll need to pay for another five minutes if you keep this up

pathdoc · 08-23-2018, 07:49 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Bert J

No doubt this will raise a chorus of abuse and bullying comments from the regulars, but I didn’t post it for you. I can almost write your replies for you.

This is not the best way to open a debate, and the way you responded to your critics wasn't the best way to continue it. I have no time for the sort of closed-minded, confrontational attitude that is at least strongly implied and IMO overtly expressed in your words. To the ignore list with you.

Binth · 08-23-2018, 08:04 AM - **1 Like**

I watched the video and could not get over the drama aspect of it, the whole "not enough pie to go around and that is depressing" I found off putting. I did find the opinions interesting and wonder why they did not use more current information since (as mentioned earlier) Nikon announced a mirrorless and his statement that Pentax badly needs to upgrade the K-1. Strange a two year old body is that out of date.

My take on this is I got 5 years use out of my K-5II and I expect to get that with my K-1 and I will worry about the landscape of DSLR or mirrorless when the time comes to purchase a new body. If Pentax is indeed doomed and fails before then it is not like my camera will stop functioning so I can continue to enjoy it regardless. When I choose my next body I will look at what the Pentax offerings are first and then compare to the competition to see if it makes sense to switch based on my needs then compared to now. In the meantime I am not going to worry about if Pentax makes a mirrorless or not and will just continue to enjoy what I have.

northcoastgreg · 08-23-2018, 08:04 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

The camera industry needs to sell mirrorless tech because if not, all industry players will suffer from a stagnation of camera sales

That seems to me to be the central issue. If you bought a DSLR in 2005, there would exist fairly compelling reasons to buy a new DSLR in 2008, mainly due to improvements in sensor technology (better high ISO performance, better DR, more MP when that meant something). However, if you bought a DSLR after 2010, there was often no compelling reason to upgrade in 2013. Well that's obviously a problem for DSLR manufacturers, as they can no longer count on their customers upgrading every two or three years. It's also a problem for another group of people, to wit, those photographers and gearheads sadly inflicted with an irrational desire for the new. These neophiles believe, in defiance of evidence, that technology is always getting better and that there is something shameful about using "old" technology. They are upgrades junkies and they need to get their fix. I'm not convinced that these people constitute the majority of photographers. There are many photographers out there who are sensible and pragmatic. Some of these sensible and pragmatic photographers will move to mirrorless because they prefer EVFs, what a smaller sized camera, or for cost reasons. They won't move to mirrorless because mirrorless is "new" or the future. That's sheer sentimentality and it's irrational. But many of these sensible, pragmatic photographers will stay with DSLRs because they prefer OVFs or they find that DSLRs balance large lenses more comfortably or they like investing in a camera that will last them many years. Human beings are not homogeneous. They're different from their ground up and that's the reason why a camera industry that produces diverse products is far more desirable than otherwise. That is why I have confidence that DSLRs will be around for many years to come. They will be around because people have diverse needs and the upgrade junkie contingent does not represent the majority of serious photographers.

**boriscleto** · 08-23-2018, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

This thread could have been so much more valuable if it had been initiated without publicly voicing the assumption that existing members ("regulars") would respond negatively.

We're all just hopeless fanboys.

**boriscleto** · 08-23-2018, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Kozlok

This whole thread reminds me of going to the argument clinic, just to wander into abuse by mistake.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrbOVeRonQ

Stupid git.

You Tube

reh321 · 08-23-2018, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by Bert J

I agree Tony is misplaced sometimes. But it's interesting that many of his wishes are being implemented.

I've heard reports that the Northrups are their way to NYC to try out the new Nikon MILCs - interesting if true.

stevebrot · 08-23-2018, 08:40 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Bert J

No doubt this will raise a chorus of abuse and bullying comments from the regulars, but I didn’t post it for you.

Who did you post it for then and why your concern? I guess I am about as much "old guard" as it gets on this site. Let's see if I can prove you wrong in my response.

Did you post this as a head's up to Ricoh? Ricoh does not monitor this site and our musings have little if any influence. I doubt too whether they care what Tony Northrup says either. After all, he had to beg to get a K-1 for his review. (Did they finally give him one, I forget.)
There may well be a higher end MILC in the Pentax future. After all, look at Nikon and Canon.
If Pentax goes mirrorless as its primary product, it will essentially orphan the mount on your current camera. Use the history of Sony A-mount as an example with the last A-mount lens being released in 2015. No, the likelihood of a K-mount mirrorless ala K-01 is nil, ain't gonna happen, no way no how.
If Pentax goes seriously mirrorless, it will not be a survival move, it will be motivated by potential for market share. Ricoh already makes mirrorless under their own name and knows the market well and has chosen to retain a low profile the last several years. (The anguished wails of hopeful GRIII owners is practically palpable as a result.)
If Pentax goes mirrorless, it may well not be in a compact format (i.e. 24x36mm or smaller)

Steve

(...amazing topic for a first thread on this site...sets the tone for future interactions, I hope not...

)

ChristianRock · 08-23-2018, 08:50 AM - **1 Like**

I'm actually seeing the OP bullying and berating the forum and its users. The whole shtick about "I can bully you but if you even dare to say I'm wrong, I'm going to call you all sorts of names" is reprehensible, it's condescending and I couldn't care less if you don't like me saying that.

But since we need to up the number of posts, here's my opinion.

Tony is a fanboy of a different brand of cameras, so he berates what he doesn't like. I don't consider his opinion. Ever.

Second, I think if Pentax wants to stay in the DSLR business, it is their right. Now with Canon and Nikon moving over to the MILC side, anyone who uses these brands, yet prefers an OVF to an EVF might have a 2nd look at Pentax.

Pentax, by the way, stated the same thing about the 645 format - they will stick to what they are doing - and not move to a mirrorless medium format system - because they believe there will always be a market for people looking for an OVF.

You (and Tony) might disagree but the point is moot - Ricoh/Pentax will do what they believe in, and you have the right to say whatever you want about it, but coming in here and bullying the forum members will only get you banned. And I guess it won't be any big loss to us or to you. Life goes on.

stevebrot · 08-23-2018, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by MarkJerling

You must have one heck of an ignore list Boris!

Enough so that "boriscletoed" has become a verb of sorts on this site and that the threat of such is generally an indication of resignation and mild disgust.

Steve

stevebrot · 08-23-2018, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by clickclick

Monty Python - "And Now For Something Completely Different" - YouTube

"...and now for something completely different..."

Originally posted by TER-OR

Not everyone has to make everything. Should BMW market a full-sized pickup truck?

Originally posted by Kozlok

This whole thread reminds me of going to the argument clinic, just to wander into abuse by mistake.

Yes, that too.

Steve

08-23-2018, 08:40 AM - 1 Like	#72
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Bert J No doubt this will raise a chorus of abuse and bullying comments from the regulars, but I didn’t post it for you. Who did you post it for then and why your concern? I guess I am about as much "old guard" as it gets on this site. Let's see if I can prove you wrong in my response. Did you post this as a head's up to Ricoh? Ricoh does not monitor this site and our musings have little if any influence. I doubt too whether they care what Tony Northrup says either. After all, he had to beg to get a K-1 for his review. (Did they finally give him one, I forget.) There may well be a higher end MILC in the Pentax future. After all, look at Nikon and Canon. If Pentax goes mirrorless as its primary product, it will essentially orphan the mount on your current camera. Use the history of Sony A-mount as an example with the last A-mount lens being released in 2015. No, the likelihood of a K-mount mirrorless ala K-01 is nil, ain't gonna happen, no way no how. If Pentax goes seriously mirrorless, it will not be a survival move, it will be motivated by potential for market share. Ricoh already makes mirrorless under their own name and knows the market well and has chosen to retain a low profile the last several years. (The anguished wails of hopeful GRIII owners is practically palpable as a result.) If Pentax goes mirrorless, it may well not be in a compact format (i.e. 24x36mm or smaller) Steve (...amazing topic for a first thread on this site...sets the tone for future interactions, I hope not... )

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08-23-2018, 07:14 AM	#62
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,209	Originally posted by Kozlok This whole thread reminds me of going to the argument clinic, just to wander into abuse by mistake. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrbOVeRonQ A classic. Always good for a laugh.

08-23-2018, 07:30 AM	#63
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,249	Originally posted by RobA_Oz A classic. Always good for a laugh. Sorry but you are off topic, only arguments accepted and considered by the OP.

08-23-2018, 07:31 AM	#64
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,209	Originally posted by biz-engineer Sorry but you are off topic, only arguments accepted and considered by the OP. No they aren’t!

08-23-2018, 07:43 AM - 2 Likes	#65
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,701	Originally posted by RobA_Oz No they aren’t! You'll need to pay for another five minutes if you keep this up

08-23-2018, 07:49 AM - 1 Like	#66
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	Originally posted by Bert J No doubt this will raise a chorus of abuse and bullying comments from the regulars, but I didn’t post it for you. I can almost write your replies for you. This is not the best way to open a debate, and the way you responded to your critics wasn't the best way to continue it. I have no time for the sort of closed-minded, confrontational attitude that is at least strongly implied and IMO overtly expressed in your words. To the ignore list with you.

08-23-2018, 08:04 AM - 1 Like	#67
Binth Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 36	I watched the video and could not get over the drama aspect of it, the whole "not enough pie to go around and that is depressing" I found off putting. I did find the opinions interesting and wonder why they did not use more current information since (as mentioned earlier) Nikon announced a mirrorless and his statement that Pentax badly needs to upgrade the K-1. Strange a two year old body is that out of date. My take on this is I got 5 years use out of my K-5II and I expect to get that with my K-1 and I will worry about the landscape of DSLR or mirrorless when the time comes to purchase a new body. If Pentax is indeed doomed and fails before then it is not like my camera will stop functioning so I can continue to enjoy it regardless. When I choose my next body I will look at what the Pentax offerings are first and then compare to the competition to see if it makes sense to switch based on my needs then compared to now. In the meantime I am not going to worry about if Pentax makes a mirrorless or not and will just continue to enjoy what I have.

08-23-2018, 08:04 AM - 2 Likes	#68
northcoastgreg Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Northern Michigan Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,175	Originally posted by biz-engineer The camera industry needs to sell mirrorless tech because if not, all industry players will suffer from a stagnation of camera sales That seems to me to be the central issue. If you bought a DSLR in 2005, there would exist fairly compelling reasons to buy a new DSLR in 2008, mainly due to improvements in sensor technology (better high ISO performance, better DR, more MP when that meant something). However, if you bought a DSLR after 2010, there was often no compelling reason to upgrade in 2013. Well that's obviously a problem for DSLR manufacturers, as they can no longer count on their customers upgrading every two or three years. It's also a problem for another group of people, to wit, those photographers and gearheads sadly inflicted with an irrational desire for the new. These neophiles believe, in defiance of evidence, that technology is always getting better and that there is something shameful about using "old" technology. They are upgrades junkies and they need to get their fix. I'm not convinced that these people constitute the majority of photographers. There are many photographers out there who are sensible and pragmatic. Some of these sensible and pragmatic photographers will move to mirrorless because they prefer EVFs, what a smaller sized camera, or for cost reasons. They won't move to mirrorless because mirrorless is "new" or the future. That's sheer sentimentality and it's irrational. But many of these sensible, pragmatic photographers will stay with DSLRs because they prefer OVFs or they find that DSLRs balance large lenses more comfortably or they like investing in a camera that will last them many years. Human beings are not homogeneous. They're different from their ground up and that's the reason why a camera industry that produces diverse products is far more desirable than otherwise. That is why I have confidence that DSLRs will be around for many years to come. They will be around because people have diverse needs and the upgrade junkie contingent does not represent the majority of serious photographers.

08-23-2018, 08:27 AM	#69
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,477	Originally posted by BigMackCam This thread could have been so much more valuable if it had been initiated without publicly voicing the assumption that existing members ("regulars") would respond negatively. We're all just hopeless fanboys.

08-23-2018, 08:34 AM	#71
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,185	Originally posted by Bert J I agree Tony is misplaced sometimes. But it's interesting that many of his wishes are being implemented. I've heard reports that the Northrups are their way to NYC to try out the new Nikon MILCs - interesting if true.

08-23-2018, 08:50 AM - 1 Like	#73
ChristianRock Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: People's Republic of America Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,912	I'm actually seeing the OP bullying and berating the forum and its users. The whole shtick about "I can bully you but if you even dare to say I'm wrong, I'm going to call you all sorts of names" is reprehensible, it's condescending and I couldn't care less if you don't like me saying that. But since we need to up the number of posts, here's my opinion. Tony is a fanboy of a different brand of cameras, so he berates what he doesn't like. I don't consider his opinion. Ever. Second, I think if Pentax wants to stay in the DSLR business, it is their right. Now with Canon and Nikon moving over to the MILC side, anyone who uses these brands, yet prefers an OVF to an EVF might have a 2nd look at Pentax. Pentax, by the way, stated the same thing about the 645 format - they will stick to what they are doing - and not move to a mirrorless medium format system - because they believe there will always be a market for people looking for an OVF. You (and Tony) might disagree but the point is moot - Ricoh/Pentax will do what they believe in, and you have the right to say whatever you want about it, but coming in here and bullying the forum members will only get you banned. And I guess it won't be any big loss to us or to you. Life goes on.

08-23-2018, 08:58 AM	#74
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by MarkJerling You must have one heck of an ignore list Boris! Enough so that "boriscletoed" has become a verb of sorts on this site and that the threat of such is generally an indication of resignation and mild disgust. Steve

08-23-2018, 09:00 AM	#75
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by clickclick Monty Python - "And Now For Something Completely Different" - YouTube "...and now for something completely different..." Originally posted by TER-OR Not everyone has to make everything. Should BMW market a full-sized pickup truck? Originally posted by Kozlok This whole thread reminds me of going to the argument clinic, just to wander into abuse by mistake. Yes, that too. Steve

Northrup on Mirrorless

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