[normhead]

The "all the world are dummies except for me and thee" argument continues.

After all the online videos etc. about the A9 etc. how could that even be possible?

[ThorSanchez]

The "all the world are dummies except for me and thee" argument continues.

After all the online videos etc. about the A9 etc. how could that even be possible?

Are you referring to my post? I specifically said that I was the dummy until I took an interest in the subject. We can't be experts in everything, even things we have a passing interest in.

If researchers asked people who only use public transportation whether they'd like a traditional ICE car or an electric or a hybrid the responses would be a mix of well-researched opinions and wild guesses and bias based on the deeply held rantings of their Uncle Wayne. Asking people who don't have a camera what kind they want is similar.

I know you'd like the answer here to be most people picked DSLRs because DSLRs are better and people are overwhelmingly rational and well-informed. But I doubt that's the whole story.

[beholder3]

What are you looking at when you declare that MILC is "non-competitive"?

Camera Database - DxOMark

Surely not at theoretical ratings from liars and sadly incompetents, such as DxO. No serious enthusiast I know would take their nonsense as basis for "competitiveness".

[normhead]

Surely not at theoretical ratings from liars and sadly incompetents, such as DxO. No serious enthusiast I know would take their nonsense as basis for "competitiveness".

Especially when the K-5 was rated the #5 camera in the world behind only full frames. That said absolutely nothing about their competitiveness. DxO is good for what they do. You just have to understand what they do.

Regardless of what people, myself, included have criticized about them. They still have a testing protocol and they do put the cameras through the same tests, which you may or may not think are relevant and produce data compared on relevant to them baselines.

You can say they suck, but, I'll take their data over some guy mouthing off on the internet any day. If you figure out exactly what their data means, it means exactly what they explain it means. Whether or not that is relevant to you is a different topic.

If you want to know how images translate into 8 MP files in light taken in a dimly lit basement, DxO is excellent. And it that's the kind of conditions you regularly shoot in, their data is very good.

Is their data relevant to a guy like me who regularly shoots in good light at 100 ISO, well not so much.

Their tests aren't relevant to everyone. But it's better than no testing and just making up stuff. DxO says their test are good for what they re good for, and really there is no arguing with that. And they back it up be building lens and sensor profiles you can use to optimize you post processing. They actually use the results of their tests in the real world, and make those results available to the general public. I find it hard to argue with that. That's a good thing and a benefit to the community.

Saying DxO is incompetent sort of intimates that you are competent enough to know that, and that, I seriously doubt. These guys have presented papers a conferences of optical engineers etc.. What's your qualification?

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Last edited by normhead; 10-09-2018 at 09:48 AM.

[reh321]

Surely not at theoretical ratings from liars and sadly incompetents, such as DxO. No serious enthusiast I know would take their nonsense as basis for "competitiveness".

You didn't answer my question: how do you evaluate "competitiveness".

[Lord Lucan]

How many people on the forum did you just insult? [etc ... etc]

I am utterly baffled as to how you read that lot into my comment, or how you see any insult in it. If you read the original post in this thread and follow the link there to "thephoblographer" website, with the news item that this thread is about, you will read these words :-

a market study .... revealed that DSLRs are more popular options for point-and-shoot and mobile photographers

Referring to your question, P&S and mobile photographers, the potential purchasers we are talking about (or at least what I was talking about), are not likely to be numerous on this forum, although I am glad of any that are and welcome them as potential Pentax users.

Nor was my comment an insult in any case, actual or intended. I had not heard of mirrorless cameras myself until after I joined this forum 18(?) months ago after updating my DSLR kit. I never looked at anything but Pentax but if I had gone for advice in a camera shop I have no doubt the salemen there would have soon have told me about mirrorless, and I would have listened too, if did not already have legacy Pentax glass. My point was that at that stage many of those new buyers mentioned in that link would have dropped their original idea of a DSLR and gone for mirrorless. That does not make them stupid, it's a personal choice.

Far from my having a "people who choose DSLRs over mirrorless are stupid" mindset, (or did you mean "mirrorless over DSLRs" - your point here seems muddled), you in your second sentence say :-

If a study says the world ins't crazy about mirrorless, there's something wrong with it.

So you are calling people crazy if they go mirrorless. There's an insult if you are looking for one, but I'll take it as a figure of speech.

[normhead]

I am utterly baffled as to how you read that lot into my comment, or how you see any insult in it. If you read the original post in this thread and follow the link there to "thephoblographer" website, with the news item that this thread is about, you will read these words :-

Referring to your question, P&S and mobile photographers, the potential purchasers we are talking about (or at least what I was talking about), are not likely to be numerous on this forum, although I am glad of any that are and welcome them as potential Pentax users.

Nor was my comment an insult in any case, actual or intended. I had not heard of mirrorless cameras myself until after I joined this forum 18(?) months ago after updating my DSLR kit. I never looked at anything but Pentax but if I had gone for advice in a camera shop I have no doubt the salemen there would have soon have told me about mirrorless, and I would have listened too, if did not already have legacy Pentax glass. My point was that at that stage many of those new buyers mentioned in that link would have dropped their original idea of a DSLR and gone for mirrorless. That does not make them stupid, it's a personal choice.

Far from my having a "people who choose DSLRs over mirrorless are stupid" mindset, (or did you mean "mirrorless over DSLRs" - your point here seems muddled), you in your second sentence say :-

So you are calling people crazy if they go mirrorless. There's an insult if you are looking for one, but I'll take it as a figure of speech.

I have no problem with people going mirrorless. I have a problem with people thinking they are smarter than people who don't because they did.

I am utterly baffled as to how you read that lot into my comment,

I would not be at all surprised if most of these users do not know the difference between DSLR and mirrorless

Exactly. They have heard of SLR cameras, and not of mirrorless ones, and naturally want a digital one. However, wait until the salesmen start talking to them.

Is it still baffling? The assumption that the people in the survey don't know what mirrorless is, hence more ignorant than almost every camera enthusiast on the planet. I have never heard of a study criticized before based on the assumed ignorance of the participants. Certainly as a crazy assumption that in 2018, not 2011, there are camera enthusiasts who don't know about mirrorless. But humour me. Post a survey or something where a single person in the target sample doesn't know mirrorless is an option. The way to counter research is not speculation about the knowledge of a study's participants, it's better research.

I mean really folks, you can't just start piling negatives on every bit of research, just because you disagree with it. What's the point, I see some of research, I think needs further study and file it away until I have more data. I don't start posting reasons on line why it doesn't mean what it seems to mean, unless I actually know something.

In this case, I take the study at face value. It means exactly what it claims to mean. There is simply no plausible reason to doubt it. All the factors of what might happen later are irrelevant. The study doesn't address how much the sample knows, or if they will eventually buy a DSLR or a mirrorless. The study says what it says. Live with it. Speculation without further study doesn't clarify the issue.

For all we know, the study's participants actually know more than the average consumer about mirrorless cameras, and will buy a DSLR, just like they said they would. Suggestions to the contrary are simply not researched to the same level as the original study. In fact they are not researched at all. And in fact, some of the people who plan to by mirrorless may end up buying DSLRs. The numbers don't suggest which way that's going to fall. But it would be an interesting subject of a study.

That being said, if you can get your hands on the original data, you can come up with a different interpretation than the authors did. That is often the case. I never make final judgement on study until I understand the design and implementation and actually see the raw scores so I have some idea what I'm dealing with. Until then it's pretty much just canon fodder. An awful lot of studies post conclusions not consistent with their data. This is just newspaper fluff.

And if you are going to speculate, why not speculate both sides of the argument? Questioning the reliability of those who say they'll buy DSLRs but not that of those who say they'll buy mirrorless is just a biased criticism. It's not even well thought out speculation.

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Last edited by normhead; 10-09-2018 at 02:19 PM.

[leekil]

Is it still baffling? The assumption that the people in the survey don't know what mirrorless is, hence more ignorant than almost every camera enthusiast on the planet. I have never heard of a study criticized before based on the assumed ignorance of the participants.

I don't think he is *criticizing* the survey, just trying to explain why it is so heavily skewed toward DSLRs, when the purchases of MILCs outsell DSLRs.

From the article:

The 2018 US Digital Interchangeable Lens Camera (DILC) Market Study by KeyPoint Intelligence has narrowed down their research to opportunities pertaining to first-time buying photo enthusiasts. The study has found that 72% of those who are considering buying a digital interchangeable lens camera in the next year currently don’t have one. Also, smartphone only and point and shoot camera owners comprise the pool of potential buyers, but only 33% of smartphone only owners and 42% of point and shoot camera owners are thinking of getting a mirrorless camera.

These "enthusiasts" might be more accurately called "potential enthusiasts", since many of them have only smartphones and none of them have anything better than a point-and-shoot. Without any criticism of their intelligence (by me), I assume that DSLRs are more widely-known than other cameras, as I hear many non-enthusiasts talk about DSLRs but never about MILCs. I assume that you have to be approaching the purchase of a more expensive camera to start researching it more, and probably those who are more advanced in that process are also more knowledgeable about the different camera types.

[beholder3]

Saying DxO is incompetent sort of intimates that you are competent enough to know that, and that, I seriously doubt.

Every monkey is more competent than dxo. They lied like a brat. Lying and being competent is impossible together. Its just like dptabloid.

[reh321]

Every monkey is more competent than dxo. They lied like a brat.

What is your basis for this statement???

[normhead]

I don't think he is *criticizing* the survey, just trying to explain why it is so heavily skewed toward DSLRs, when the purchases of MILCs outsell DSLRs.

From the article:

Since when do MILCs outsell DSLRs.? Source?

On the flickr list that tracks usage, not sales Apple is first, Canon is Second, Nikon is 3rd, Samsung is fourth Sony is fifth, and Sony is both DSLR and Mirrorless.

So in terms of usage. MILCs are way behind.
Flickr: Camera Finder

From 2017


With DSLRs having a huge lead in the number of users using them, it will take years of sales superiority before MILCs are more prevalent than DSLRs, especially since overall camera sales are have slowed down. And there's no evidence that they even will have a majority of sales this year, although MILC sales could pass DSLR sales later this year. Whether or not MILC sales can get a lead in sales and maintain it is another question.

It remains to be seen if MILC sales will hit a wall, where the various MILC companies canabilize each others sales, but where everyone who wants one has one, Or there will continue to be competition for new and returning customers, since many returning customers will be DSLR shooters.

Looking at the graph above, it's pretty clear, MILCs ill probably never pass DSLR 1012 levels. Start of 2017 they were selling 1 million units, in 2012 DSLRs sold 3 million units. The total sales DSLRs and MILCs for this year is below 2012 DSLRs units. Hence the flickr numbers and why MILCS aren't making much headway in useage, yet.

In five years we'll know more.

[victormeldrew]

I'm considering buying a Maserati Quattroporte. It relies on several precursors, namely a lottery win, but I'm sure I'll definitely maybe buy one if I do win. Or an Alfa Romeo Giullia maybe.


'People say they are considering X' surveys are utterly pointless for this reason. If they had any weight at all, half of the population of my country would have moved to Europe by now (according to pre-brexit surveys) and half the US population would be in Canada (according to post-Trump surveys). We all like to think we would do something, then come crunch time we don't.

[Merv-O]

Many people assume that a better, faster, more expensive camera will automatically make them a better photographer....These market studies often seek to find areas of the marketplace that can sell more products.

My feeling is this. I shoot everything from film (Canon FTBn) to mirrorless (Leica M9/CL) to Pentax (currently K-1 mkii/K-S2) DSLRs and they all produce great photos. They have different color palettes and interpretations given the infinite differential in ISO, f-stops, and optical glass. The one constant is me.

Shooting manually or via auto-focus/program still requires me to set the frame of the shot, decide on focal length and adjustments. If you're happy with iPhone pics, you may never buy a DSLR or other type of camera. To me, investing in a new $1,200 + camera body is more important than a $1,200 phone. But we're all different. Being in this Forum clearly means we all have a bias towards traditional photography and are more serious about the images we capture than selfies and Grandma's dinner on a phone.

Simply, buying a sports car doesn't make you a better driver unless you learn the nuances of the vehicle itself. So it is with Cameras and related lenses/equipment.

[RonHendriks1966]

Since when do MILCs outsell DSLRs.? Source?

Not relevant since this is a US survey.

- In Japan mirrorless outsells dslr.
- In Europe last august mirrorless sold more in yen for the first month then dslr.

[normhead]

Not relevant since this is a US survey.

- In Japan mirrorless outsells dslr.
- In Europe last august mirrorless sold more in yen for the first month then dslr.

Do you have any comprehensive numbers? Or do you just have numbers that look cherry picked?