A simpler camera

Samwise.Gamgee · 10-18-2018, 09:55 PM - **3 Likes**

Would you agree that cameras have become extremely complicated? I'm an engineer and developer myself but even I get confused with all the new options, controls and menus

I know friends and families who were and are really good photographers with film cameras but just never felt confident with digital cameras.

Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX?

**beachgardener** · 10-18-2018, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee

Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX?

Absolutely yes, I fully agree. I also agree that for those that want one the technical cameras should exist.
For me, strip out all that unnecessary rubbish like gps, wifi, video (just have a live view).

But for those that don't like the technical side, I'm glad the cameras have the manual operation of exposure, so it exists on the Pentax digital camera that the operator can take control of settings manually, just like they would on a film camera.

skierd · 10-18-2018, 10:26 PM

I personally would love a digital Olympus XA. An actual 35mm f2.8 (or APS-C equivalent) manually focused rangefinder, or at least an AF camera with an optical viewfinder, that fits in my pocket and who’s battery lasts forever. It only needs one central focus point (or the rangefinder patch), manually selected apertures with automatic shutter speeds, leaf shutter so it’s quiet, and most importantly pocketable.

So far the Ricoh GR is closest to what I want, so it might come for Christmas.

For my DSLR? Give me Hyper-Program and I’m pretty happy.

Adam · 10-18-2018, 10:35 PM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee

Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera?

No. Due to the rise of smartphones, I don't think there would much be demand in the camera market for a camera that couldn't go above and beyond in as many ways as possible. For novice users, there's so much automation available by default (even on many high-end camera models) that users can pretty much forget about all the buttons and options until they stop feeling overwhelmed.

Several years ago Nikon tried releasing a "simpler" camera when they came out with the Df- and it got grilled for not having video support, because there really is no reason not to include a feature when the hardware (and product price) supports it. The same case can be made for all the software bells and whistles that modern cameras have picked up over the years.

Adam
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**beachgardener** · 10-18-2018, 10:49 PM - **6 Likes**

I am one of the few that don't use a smart phone. I have a home phone, if it rings I might answer it. Out and about the only electronic device I use is a camera, in the most I am not going to chain my self to electronica, out and about I prefer to be in the world, not some zombie with a phone.

**Alex645** · 10-18-2018, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee

Would you agree that cameras have become extremely complicated? I'm an engineer and developer myself but even I get confused with all the new options, controls and menus

I know friends and families who were and are really good photographers with film cameras but just never felt confident with digital cameras.

Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX?

I agree with you, but it's all about profits and Adam is spot-on. Leica makes, for example, the M10 for $7000+ if you want simplicity, and Nikon Df attempted retro simplicity, but unfortunately the green AUTO mode and default settings is the best you're going to find on everything else or using M mode and disabling the Menu button. Ouch.

**beachgardener** · 10-18-2018, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Alex645

for example, the M10

They re bringing out the M10-D with no screen

The Leica M10-D camera will be announced on October 23rd - Leica Rumors

Not a Number · 10-18-2018, 11:34 PM

There were (are?) Point & Shoot and Bridge cameras. Cameras on phones mostly supplanted those Or just leave your Pentax in Green mode.

08amczb · 10-19-2018, 12:30 AM - **2 Likes**

NO, and I think you can turn your camera to M, set your ISO and you can use your camera exactly like a K1000. If some additional features are too complicated for you ignore them.

MrB1 · 10-19-2018, 01:14 AM

As 08amczb has written, just ignore any features you don't want.

Pentax DSLRs are as simple or as complex as you want them to be. If not starting from new, first select the Reset option. Then for ultimate shooting simplicity set the mode dial to Auto (Green). For simplicity of control set the mode dial to Manual (M) (and I would also set the Custom Image to Natural), and use the camera like a 70s film camera.

In my opinion, it is good to have a camera with all the bells and whistles on board, even if some would rarely or never be used. However, I think it is a mistake to include a new feature at the expense of an established one, e.g. the GPS replacing the flash in the K-3II - I would guess that many users (including me) would have preferred to have both available.

Philip

tokyoscape · 10-19-2018, 01:25 AM

I guess that is why some people use smartphone. At least my 70 years old parents. It fast and simple to use and it can connect to the internet.

Lord Lucan · 10-19-2018, 02:14 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee

Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX?

That's funny, because I use my DSLR more or less like an LX. Ie in Av or manual mode, very often with a legacy lens so manual focus, and I don't have the faintest interest in video, my GPS position, the time in Timbuktu, or the vast majority of the thousands of permutations and factoids that the menus offer.

The trouble is that different people have different ideas of what is "simple". Then there is "simple" to the user and there is "simple" technically. I have acquired from years with manual film cameras an instinctive understanding of F-numbers and shutter speeds, but users brought up with programmed exposure and phone cameras might well consider the LX as complex in that they would need, say, a half-day* course on using it. People might say that the green button mode on a DSLR is simple to use, but technically, under the hood, it is anything but simple.

I would guess that most people use a small subset of the possible DSLR modes but that subset would be different between people. So any of those people might say it is OK to cut out the modes they don't use, but that would leave 80% of other people (even if those others also claim to want simplicity) dissatisfied because they would have had different ideas of simplicity in mind. The best approach I think is to learn one or two modes well and if you think you need anything outside that, go and read the manual for the occasion.

* My daughter would say that requiring half a minute of instruction is too much. The younger generation generally don't want to read or hear instructions on anything, which is a paradox as modern gadgets have so much functionality.

**Madaboutpix** · 10-19-2018, 03:22 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee

Would you agree that cameras have become extremely complicated?

I'm an engineer and developer myself but even I get confused with all the new options, controls and menus I know friends and families who were and are really good photographers with film cameras but just never felt confident with digital cameras.

Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX?

Nostalgia remains a poor counsellor, mostly because (like fear) it's an emotion that may and often does provide you with helpful pointers, but those need to be checked by reason. Now, why would I want to pay a four-digit sum on a flagship DSLR that locks me in what was technically feasible in 1980? Or at least dumbs down the feature list to a considerable degree? That takes away the advanced ergonomics - think: deep grip, body moulded to fit a mid-sized human hand, carefully thought-out dedicated controls, ...? Anybody surprised the Nikon Df flopped so dismally (Adam already referenced it)? And, mind you, that was Nikon, a manufacturer with a much broader user base.

Even if I may not need all the bells and whistles on board my DSLR now, it gives me peace of mind to know they're right there at my fingertipps, in case I should need them. What I want is a camera that can follow me basically wherever my creativity leads me.

If anything, the technical side of photography has become easier since the days of film. Since I shot colour slide film in the 1980s and 1990s with a Minolta X-700, my technical keeper rate has increased considerably, even if I try to subtract my evolved photographic skill. And as someone who could never afford a conventional darkroom but has learnt to utilize advanced RAW converters, I feel so much more in control today.

The trick, I suppose, is just not letting yourself be too distracted by all the features and possibilities of a modern top-tier DSLR. Explore them gradually, one or two at a time, as the need arises. For example, I'm not ashamed to say that I started out with Green and P Modes, too, even if today I would prefer TAv or Av for most occasions. Now, if you insist on shooting such a modern beast like an LX, as has been noted repeatedly in this thread, you can set it basically to do just that.

You remain the photographer. You count the shots. Even in the digital age, your skill and creativity are way more important for the final outcome than anything your camera can do for you.

**beachgardener** · 10-19-2018, 03:50 AM

If Pentax made a simple digital camera aps-c or 35mm that was only, no screen, only ISO, Av, Tv, +/- EV I would jump on it.

MaineNative · 10-19-2018, 05:12 AM

I got very frustrated earlier this year trying to find a high-quality and simple camera for my father. He has always loved photography but he is starting to lose his memory. He loves taking pictures but giving him a camera with a dozen or more buttons and scrolling menus doesn’t work for him. Think Poloroid... aim and push THE button. That is a different market from the people who know how to navigate iPhone menus and just don’t want the hassle. I want a power button and a shutter release.

We ended up buying basically a “toy” camera for him. When we visit, we change out the memory card and put in a fresh battery. We print off the good pictures from the memory card and bring them in for him to enjoy. Why can’t I get a high-quality digital camera with a simple one or two button interface?

10-18-2018, 09:55 PM - 3 Likes	#1
Samwise.Gamgee Junior Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 36	A simpler camera Would you agree that cameras have become extremely complicated? I'm an engineer and developer myself but even I get confused with all the new options, controls and menus I know friends and families who were and are really good photographers with film cameras but just never felt confident with digital cameras. Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX?

10-19-2018, 02:14 AM - 3 Likes	#12
Lord Lucan Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: South Wales Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,975	Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX? That's funny, because I use my DSLR more or less like an LX. Ie in Av or manual mode, very often with a legacy lens so manual focus, and I don't have the faintest interest in video, my GPS position, the time in Timbuktu, or the vast majority of the thousands of permutations and factoids that the menus offer. The trouble is that different people have different ideas of what is "simple". Then there is "simple" to the user and there is "simple" technically. I have acquired from years with manual film cameras an instinctive understanding of F-numbers and shutter speeds, but users brought up with programmed exposure and phone cameras might well consider the LX as complex in that they would need, say, a half-day* course on using it. People might say that the green button mode on a DSLR is simple to use, but technically, under the hood, it is anything but simple. I would guess that most people use a small subset of the possible DSLR modes but that subset would be different between people. So any of those people might say it is OK to cut out the modes they don't use, but that would leave 80% of other people (even if those others also claim to want simplicity) dissatisfied because they would have had different ideas of simplicity in mind. The best approach I think is to learn one or two modes well and if you think you need anything outside that, go and read the manual for the occasion. * My daughter would say that requiring half a minute of instruction is too much. The younger generation generally don't want to read or hear instructions on anything, which is a paradox as modern gadgets have so much functionality. Last edited by Lord Lucan; 10-19-2018 at 03:03 AM. Reason: Clarification & added footnote

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10-18-2018, 10:25 PM	#2
beachgardener Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,842	Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX? Absolutely yes, I fully agree. I also agree that for those that want one the technical cameras should exist. For me, strip out all that unnecessary rubbish like gps, wifi, video (just have a live view). But for those that don't like the technical side, I'm glad the cameras have the manual operation of exposure, so it exists on the Pentax digital camera that the operator can take control of settings manually, just like they would on a film camera.

10-18-2018, 10:26 PM	#3
skierd Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Fairbanks, AK Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,472	I personally would love a digital Olympus XA. An actual 35mm f2.8 (or APS-C equivalent) manually focused rangefinder, or at least an AF camera with an optical viewfinder, that fits in my pocket and who’s battery lasts forever. It only needs one central focus point (or the rangefinder patch), manually selected apertures with automatic shutter speeds, leaf shutter so it’s quiet, and most importantly pocketable. So far the Ricoh GR is closest to what I want, so it might come for Christmas. For my DSLR? Give me Hyper-Program and I’m pretty happy.

10-18-2018, 10:35 PM - 3 Likes	#4
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,597	Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? No. Due to the rise of smartphones, I don't think there would much be demand in the camera market for a camera that couldn't go above and beyond in as many ways as possible. For novice users, there's so much automation available by default (even on many high-end camera models) that users can pretty much forget about all the buttons and options until they stop feeling overwhelmed. Several years ago Nikon tried releasing a "simpler" camera when they came out with the Df- and it got grilled for not having video support, because there really is no reason not to include a feature when the hardware (and product price) supports it. The same case can be made for all the software bells and whistles that modern cameras have picked up over the years. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

10-18-2018, 10:49 PM - 6 Likes	#5
beachgardener Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,842	I am one of the few that don't use a smart phone. I have a home phone, if it rings I might answer it. Out and about the only electronic device I use is a camera, in the most I am not going to chain my self to electronica, out and about I prefer to be in the world, not some zombie with a phone.

10-18-2018, 10:56 PM	#6
Alex645 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Kaneohe, HI Photos: Albums Posts: 3,526	Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee Would you agree that cameras have become extremely complicated? I'm an engineer and developer myself but even I get confused with all the new options, controls and menus I know friends and families who were and are really good photographers with film cameras but just never felt confident with digital cameras. Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX? I agree with you, but it's all about profits and Adam is spot-on. Leica makes, for example, the M10 for $7000+ if you want simplicity, and Nikon Df attempted retro simplicity, but unfortunately the green AUTO mode and default settings is the best you're going to find on everything else or using M mode and disabling the Menu button. Ouch.

10-18-2018, 11:23 PM	#7
beachgardener Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,842	Originally posted by Alex645 for example, the M10 They re bringing out the M10-D with no screen The Leica M10-D camera will be announced on October 23rd - Leica Rumors

10-18-2018, 11:34 PM	#8
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	There were (are?) Point & Shoot and Bridge cameras. Cameras on phones mostly supplanted those Or just leave your Pentax in Green mode.

10-19-2018, 12:30 AM - 2 Likes	#9
08amczb Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 796	NO, and I think you can turn your camera to M, set your ISO and you can use your camera exactly like a K1000. If some additional features are too complicated for you ignore them.

10-19-2018, 01:14 AM	#10
MrB1 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Hertfordshire, England Posts: 845	As 08amczb has written, just ignore any features you don't want. Pentax DSLRs are as simple or as complex as you want them to be. If not starting from new, first select the Reset option. Then for ultimate shooting simplicity set the mode dial to Auto (Green). For simplicity of control set the mode dial to Manual (M) (and I would also set the Custom Image to Natural), and use the camera like a 70s film camera. In my opinion, it is good to have a camera with all the bells and whistles on board, even if some would rarely or never be used. However, I think it is a mistake to include a new feature at the expense of an established one, e.g. the GPS replacing the flash in the K-3II - I would guess that many users (including me) would have preferred to have both available. Philip

10-19-2018, 01:25 AM	#11
tokyoscape Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,256	I guess that is why some people use smartphone. At least my 70 years old parents. It fast and simple to use and it can connect to the internet.

10-19-2018, 03:22 AM - 1 Like	#13
Madaboutpix Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Rhine-Westphalia Posts: 1,443	Originally posted by Samwise.Gamgee Would you agree that cameras have become extremely complicated? I'm an engineer and developer myself but even I get confused with all the new options, controls and menus I know friends and families who were and are really good photographers with film cameras but just never felt confident with digital cameras. Do you think there is a market for a simpler camera? with less controls? let's say a digital version of LX? Nostalgia remains a poor counsellor, mostly because (like fear) it's an emotion that may and often does provide you with helpful pointers, but those need to be checked by reason. Now, why would I want to pay a four-digit sum on a flagship DSLR that locks me in what was technically feasible in 1980? Or at least dumbs down the feature list to a considerable degree? That takes away the advanced ergonomics - think: deep grip, body moulded to fit a mid-sized human hand, carefully thought-out dedicated controls, ...? Anybody surprised the Nikon Df flopped so dismally (Adam already referenced it)? And, mind you, that was Nikon, a manufacturer with a much broader user base. Even if I may not need all the bells and whistles on board my DSLR now, it gives me peace of mind to know they're right there at my fingertipps, in case I should need them. What I want is a camera that can follow me basically wherever my creativity leads me. If anything, the technical side of photography has become easier since the days of film. Since I shot colour slide film in the 1980s and 1990s with a Minolta X-700, my technical keeper rate has increased considerably, even if I try to subtract my evolved photographic skill. And as someone who could never afford a conventional darkroom but has learnt to utilize advanced RAW converters, I feel so much more in control today. The trick, I suppose, is just not letting yourself be too distracted by all the features and possibilities of a modern top-tier DSLR. Explore them gradually, one or two at a time, as the need arises. For example, I'm not ashamed to say that I started out with Green and P Modes, too, even if today I would prefer TAv or Av for most occasions. Now, if you insist on shooting such a modern beast like an LX, as has been noted repeatedly in this thread, you can set it basically to do just that. You remain the photographer. You count the shots. Even in the digital age, your skill and creativity are way more important for the final outcome than anything your camera can do for you.

10-19-2018, 03:50 AM	#14
beachgardener Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,842	If Pentax made a simple digital camera aps-c or 35mm that was only, no screen, only ISO, Av, Tv, +/- EV I would jump on it.

10-19-2018, 05:12 AM	#15
MaineNative Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2017 Photos: Gallery Posts: 280	I got very frustrated earlier this year trying to find a high-quality and simple camera for my father. He has always loved photography but he is starting to lose his memory. He loves taking pictures but giving him a camera with a dozen or more buttons and scrolling menus doesn’t work for him. Think Poloroid... aim and push THE button. That is a different market from the people who know how to navigate iPhone menus and just don’t want the hassle. I want a power button and a shutter release. We ended up buying basically a “toy” camera for him. When we visit, we change out the memory card and put in a fresh battery. We print off the good pictures from the memory card and bring them in for him to enjoy. Why can’t I get a high-quality digital camera with a simple one or two button interface?