[normhead]

Iso with film didn't change. It is actually a good thing (in my opinion) that you can change your iso between shots without taking film out of the camera and changing to a different one.

As for me, if I bumped something on a film camera and messed a setting up, I wouldn't necessarily know after the fact because there wasn't an EXIF forth coming and unless I noticed it at the time, I probably wouldn't after the fact. Doesn't mean it never happened.

As for other modes, I do mostly shoot in Av mode but there are plenty of times I want to drag the shutter and jump to Tv.



Pixel Shift requires other settings, that I use a user mode for...


I have no problem with multiple settings.

I use Tav quite a bit when I am shooting action more. Regardless, I enjoy having multiple settings, but each to his own...

You can't do anything with mode settings, you couldn't do manually on an older camera, just by knowing what you were doing.

You want TV? Change the Aperture to balance your exposure, not the shutter speed dial. Want AV, change the shutter speed not the aperture. Want TaV, change the ISO, not the aperture of shutter speed. These "modes" are easily available on much simpler systems. The only thing you really need on a mode dial is "auto", and that should probably only be available on entry level cameras.

I guess you have to be my age to understand how unnecessary mode dials are. So much so, us old guys didn't need them. I thought it was pretty ridiculous when I first saw them, and still do.

It probably takes about 10 seconds to understand what most mode dials do and after that you can dispense with them The basic controls they are built around require a more complete understanding of the camera, but nothing you shouldn't have anyway. The shortcuts just mean a pile of people don't understand what they are doing.

My suspicion is that anyone who hasn't worked with a hand held light meter and become used to the trade offs that are readily apparent just by seeing all your options for each light intensity, really doesn't understand exposure. And all these mode dials are part of that. You can use the mode dials, without knowing a thing about exposure. That's actually only a good thing, for beginners. So that's my real complaint. Camera companies force us to use cameras, where the training wheels are built in and can't be removed.

I'd like to be able to purchase a camera that while it might be difficult for a beginner, would let me do what I do efficiently. I want "set it and forget it". Not "set it and check after each shot to make sure you didn't accidentally mess something up." The convenience built into cameras for beginners, is a hindrance to experienced users. Just like the transitions tricycles, bikes to cars, you should't be driving the same capabilities once you are experienced, you did when you were learning. My K-1 and K-3 are both way to dumbed down for my liking. But I wouldn't care if it didn't make the camera so unpredictable in every day use.

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Last edited by normhead; 10-24-2018 at 08:38 AM.

[Rondec]

You can't do anything with mode settings, you couldn't do manually on an older camera, just by knowing what you were doing.

You want TV? Change the Aperture to balance your exposure, not the shutter speed dial. Want AV, change the shutter speed not the aperture. Want TaV, change the ISO, not the aperture of shutter speed. These "modes" are easily available on much simpler systems. The only thing you really need on a mode dial is "auto", and that should probably only be available on entry level cameras.

I guess you have to be my age to understand how unnecessary mode dials are. So much so, us old guys didn't need them. I thought it was pretty ridiculous when I first saw them, and still do.

It probably takes about 10 seconds to understand what most mode dials do and after that you can dispense with them The basic controls they are built around require a more complete understanding of the camera, but nothing you shouldn't have anyway. The shortcuts just mean a pile of people don't understand what they are doing.

My suspicion is that anyone who hasn't worked with a hand held light meter and become used to the trade offs that are readily apparent just by seeing all your options for each light intensity, really doesn't understand exposure. And all these mode dials are part of that. You can use the mode dials, without knowing a thing about exposure. That's actually only a good thing, for beginners. So that's my real complaint. Camera companies force us to use cameras, where the training wheels are built in and can't be removed.

I'd like to be able to purchase a camera that while it might be difficult for a beginner, would let me do what I do efficiently. I want "set it and forget it". Not "set it and check after each shot to make sure you didn't accidentally mess something up." The convince built into cameras for beginners, is a hindrance to experienced users. Just like the transitions tricycles, bikes to cars, you should't be driving the same capabilities once your experienced, you did when you were learning. My K-1 and K-3 are both way to dumbed down for my liking. But I wouldn't care if it didn't make the camera so unpredictable in every day use.

I really don't want to argue, Norm. Each person is different in how they shoot. I would just say that the point of auto modes is that they are automatic. You can do everything in manual that you do elsewhere, but it does take more time. You can use a free standing light meter too, but it just takes extra money to purchase one and I'm not sure it makes a huge difference in your photos.

What helped me develop as a photographer (and yes, I'm still learning) is having EXIF information and being able to see what exactly I did to screw photos up, after the fact, and occasionally, when photos pleased me, what settings I used there.

[rogerstg]

What helped me develop as a photographer (and yes, I'm still learning) is having EXIF information and being able to see what exactly I did to screw photos up, after the fact, and occasionally, when photos pleased me, what settings I used there.

Back in the old days, I used a notebook to record settings and environmental factors and mainly shot slides. It was tedious. When semi auto exposure came on the scene, I still had to check the view finder for proper exposure settings. Unless shooting in a studio, exposure changes had to be considered for each set of shots anyway, so I am hugely grateful for the all the data now in the viewfinder/LCD. Since I'm checking exposure and focus through the viewfinder anyway, it takes a millisecond for me to confirm ISO or any other setting I may have bumped, compared to the tedium of measuring exposure and making the proper settings for practically every set of shots. I don't wish to go back to those days.

[bobmaxja]

The simplier camera for most peoples is a smartphone.

[normhead]

The simplier camera for most peoples is a smartphone.

My grandson takes great images with his. But he pays a lot for his phones. It better do something more than let you talk to your friends.

[Samwise.Gamgee]

Sorry if I wasn't clear but when I asked about a simpler camera, I didn't mean a point and shoot.

In the film era, people have produced, award winning photos with LX and that's basically using camera body (which is a dark room) and choice of Pentax lenses.

I'm thinking most of the extra controls which have become available on the camera bodies in the digital era, is as a result of enabling some of the functionalities which we used to perform in the dark room back in the film days. For example, bracketing or colour adjustments.

The reality is to produce a fantastic picture maybe we just need those few controls that we had in film cameras. Let me just clarify that I'm only talking about too many controls and not denying advanced technologies like autofocus

[victormeldrew]

Let me just clarify that I'm only talking about too many controls

Oh I see...this is the second thread recently about not wanting so many controls. Film cameras have ISO (via film choice), plus aperture and shutter speed and maybe a timer and flash sync switch. 99% of my time shooting, those are the only controls I use. The trouble is that the 1% of the time I need something deeper, I personally would still want the options available and I think a lot of photographers are the same. But the rest of the time it is extremely easy to just not use the controls you don't want to use.


There are some more restrictive options out there though, but perversely they tend to be either super-premium like Leicas or super-crap like consumer point-and-shoots or phones. In Pentax I think the KP is the closest you're likely to get...but you would still need to try not to use the options you don't want.

[rogerstg]

I wonder, if on the electronics forums, they ever complain that TVs have too many channels.

[ThorSanchez]

Oh I see...this is the second thread recently about not wanting so many controls. Film cameras have ISO (via film choice), plus aperture and shutter speed and maybe a timer and flash sync switch. 99% of my time shooting, those are the only controls I use. The trouble is that the 1% of the time I need something deeper, I personally would still want the options available and I think a lot of photographers are the same. But the rest of the time it is extremely easy to just not use the controls you don't want to use.


There are some more restrictive options out there though, but perversely they tend to be either super-premium like Leicas or super-crap like consumer point-and-shoots or phones. In Pentax I think the KP is the closest you're likely to get...but you would still need to try not to use the options you don't want.

The new Leica M10-D looks like it has just a shutter speed dial, an ISO dial, and aperture ring on the lenses, and exposure compensation on a dial on the back. No LCD. Anything else you want to change or set up or view you do through a smartphone app.

Of course it's $8000 body-only, plus $575 for an EVF, and a kit lens will cost you a kidney, your first born child, and 25% of your estate upon death.

---------- Post added 10-31-18 at 01:29 PM ----------

I wonder, if on the electronics forums, they ever complain that TVs have too many channels.

I have no desire for a simple camera, I'm good with my K-30 and K-3ii. But I can appreciate the simplicity of the controls of a Morgan 4/4. There are certainly car people who want a less distracting, overwhelming user interface.

[normhead]

I wonder, if on the electronics forums, they ever complain that TVs have too many channels.

TV forums? Such things exist?
But if I was watching my TV and accidentally changed channels inadvertently during normal use, ya, I'd complain. The cure with he TV is simple, put the remote down on the table beside you. And that would be great solution for cameras as well. Have the controls on a separate device that could be locked and put in your pocket. Unfortunately the camera is always in your hand and inadvertent unwanted changes are frequent.

[rogerstg]

Unfortunately the camera is always in your hand and inadvertent unwanted changes are frequent.

I feel fortunate that I don't have any such issues using my camera or other equipment. Perhaps it's because I'm accustom to relying on fine motor skills for activities such as fly tying and firearms shooting. I apologize for making light of your situation with the TV analogy: it was my poor attempt at humor.

[Lord Lucan]

I feel fortunate that I don't have any such issues using my camera or other equipment. Perhaps it's because I'm accustom to relying on fine motor skills for activities such as fly tying and firearms shooting.

I don't have a problem either but understand that some people can. A guy I once worked with couldn't enter a room without knocking something flying, like in a Buster Keaton film. In my case I have done plenty of working on and making small mechanisms, building electronics, DiY and, like you, competitive target shooting. It also depends on your type of photography; I tend to do landscape, townscape and other ponderdous stuff so there is plenty of time to take care. I also believe it is something in your genes although it is not PC to say so.

I cannot recall any occasion ever when I have knocked a camera control off its setting, although there are times where I omitted to make the setting in the first place, such as failing to adjust for a different speed of film.

[photoptimist]

Sorry if I wasn't clear but when I asked about a simpler camera, I didn't mean a point and shoot.

In the film era, people have produced, award winning photos with LX and that's basically using camera body (which is a dark room) and choice of Pentax lenses.

I'm thinking most of the extra controls which have become available on the camera bodies in the digital era, is as a result of enabling some of the functionalities which we used to perform in the dark room back in the film days. For example, bracketing or colour adjustments.

The reality is to produce a fantastic picture maybe we just need those few controls that we had in film cameras. Let me just clarify that I'm only talking about too many controls and not denying advanced technologies like autofocus

I'd wager that the vast majority of fantastic pictures taken in the history of photography could have been done with the single-button controls of a point-and-shoot. A relatively small percentage of portrait, landscape, street, or journalistic images use really "weird" combinations of aperture and shutter speed that are many stops different from what P-mode would pick. Add a single "scene mode" dial to the point-and-shoot interface to bias the P exposure toward shallow vs. deep DoF or fast versus slow shutter or high-key versus low-key exposure and an even greater fraction of all the fantastic images could be replicated by a P&S.

And yet as photographers, we often do seek direct and specific control of how the scene if metered (spot/center/matrix), how the metered value is converted to exposure (EV compensation); exactly how aperture and shutter are used to create or remove blur; where & how AF focuses; how white balance works; how the shutter is triggered (single->fast burst, MUP, delay, etc.); plus all those dark room functions you alluded to (white balance, saturation, high-light protection, etc.).

[GUB]

I feel fortunate that I don't have any such issues using my camera or other equipment. Perhaps it's because I'm accustom to relying on fine motor skills for activities such as fly tying and firearms shooting. I apologize for making light of your situation with the TV analogy: it was my poor attempt at humor.

It would more likely indicate that you don't twist around in an awkward pose or lay down hard against the ground with the K1 to take a close up shot. It is these situation that the thumb palm of my hand triggers the 4 way buttons. And you have to extricate yourself from that hard earned position to reset it. I also use a Q and have no problems with the dexterity needed to operate it. The K1 have a function to deactivate the 4 ways buttons but it includes the OK button which is needed for focus zooming. How hard would it be to be able to customise that function?.

[clackers]

It would more likely indicate that you don't twist around in an awkward pose or lay down hard against the ground with the K1 to take a close up shot. It is these situation that the thumb palm of my hand triggers the 4 way buttons.

I suppose that's possible, but the right hand should be just resting against the side with the finger over the shutter button and nearly all the weight's borne by the left hand, forearm and elbow.