1000 year long exposure!

graeme83 · 10-30-2018, 05:30 AM - **1 Like**

Just came across this art project for a 1000 year long pinhole exposure Tahoe Timescape - Tahoe Public Art

The idea being to record changes to the area over the years. Its a nice thought but I cant help but feel it will ultimately be disappointing, if indeed anyone ever bothers to retrieve and develop them after all that time. Any short term changes wont be picked up and the long term ones will just average out to a blurry mess over time surely?
A timelapse of the same scene would be very cool, but not quite so simple!

tuco · 10-30-2018, 06:09 AM

I'm still confused what the the guy expects. If it is a 1000-year long continuous exposure, how is that going show how bad humans are to the Earth and convince people 1000 years from now to kill themselves to save it, I wonder. Anything that moves or changes will end up a big blur or ghosted effect in the final image.

graeme83 · 10-30-2018, 06:19 AM

It sounds like the guy (a philosopher) who came up with it thinks the final image will show distinct stages through the years when it wont. A good excuse to bring up climate change and be arty about it now but ultimately pointless by the year 3018.

victormeldrew · 10-30-2018, 06:20 AM - **1 Like**

Makes no sense.

photoptimist · 10-30-2018, 07:28 AM

Jonathon Keats also has a 100-year project in Berlin ( Secret pinhole cameras to portray Berlin in 100-year exposure | Reuters ). I agree that these ultra-long duration projects are more about provoking thought today than collecting images tomorrow. I doubt any of his cameras will survive a 1000 years -- erosion, corrosion, oxidation, dust, spiders, renovation, and vandals will take their toll.

On the other hand, Michael Wesely does interesting work and gets really interesting images on multi-year urban landscape change (Unusually Long Exposure Photographs by Michael Wesely | Amusing Planet).

graeme83 · 10-30-2018, 08:07 AM

The 100 year one sounds a bit more realistic, and could potentially provide some interesting pictures I guess.

Originally posted by photoptimist

On the other hand, Michael Wesely does interesting work and gets really interesting images on multi-year urban landscape change (Unusually Long Exposure Photographs by Michael Wesely | Amusing Planet).

I like those, particularly the ones showing construction works, obviously the relatively shorter exposures of these do work with cityscapes rather well.

tuco · 10-30-2018, 08:08 AM - **5 Likes**

1000 years from now... "Damn, way over exposed. Those nuclear blasts in 2085 must have done it."

Lord Lucan · 10-30-2018, 10:09 AM - **3 Likes**

From the link : "Pierced through a plate of 24-karat gold ..... camera custom made from copper for durability"
Does this guy (or anyone) seriously expect a chunk of copper and gold, standing in the open, to be left alone for 1000 years?

Let's see : in England 1000 years ago Danes were slogging it out against Saxons, rival armies scourging the countryside looting and burning. Shortly after that William the Conquerer went on his harrying; then came the time know as "The Anarchy" (less said about the better). A few smaller civil wars, then the Wars of the Roses, with the Lancastrians being particularly bad (Henry VII emptied French jails to raise his army). Then Henry VIII's official looting of the monasteries for anything of value. Then the Civil War, more looting and vandalism in the name of King/God/Parliament (pick one). Fairly stable since then (except for the late 20th century rise of vandalism in the name of nothing), but don't bank on it lasting, there will be new fights and wars over dwindling resources for a rising population, with copper becoming an early resource issue. Between the wars and anarchy no-one ever steals anything of course, do they?

A lot happens in 1000 years. The people then will have totally different values and outlook from today. I doubt they will have much interest in someone's old vanity project even if it survives.

**PJ1** · 10-30-2018, 02:44 PM

It wouldn't necessarily be a blur. If enough young guys mooned that camera over 1,000 years, that might be the only compound image it recorded.

But I agree - it is a vanity project calculated to draw attention to someone in the here and now.

normhead · 10-30-2018, 03:12 PM - **1 Like**

A while ago there were pictures of Toronto (the CN tower being the most prominent feature) taken with a pinhole camera taped to tree. If memory serves me well they were one year exposures. Those images were cool. A film emulsion won't last anywhere near 100 years forget about 1000. Left out in the weather, I wouldn't trust them for 5.

Year-long exposure of Toronto skyline produces 'dreamy' image | The Star

victormeldrew · 10-31-2018, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by normhead

A film emulsion won't last anywhere near 100 years forget about 1000.

There's precious few buildings have survived that long, and even fewer that still 'work'. Whether or not the location would still be in the hands of the same society, or even any humans at all is quite unknown. Within 1000 years, I would expect raw materials such as gold and copper would be even more rare and valuable than now and 'scrap' like a box on a hillside that has long since been forgotten about and abandoned would be quickly appropriated.

A 1000 year timelapse would be a more feasible project, only requiring successive people to take over the chore of setting up a camera for a shot every once in a while. We know from 'pitch drop' experiments that it's possible to keep up an activity for centuries if it is interesting enough.

photoptimist · 10-31-2018, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by normhead

A while ago there were pictures of Toronto (the CN tower being the most prominent feature) taken with a pinhole camera taped to tree. If memory serves me well they were one year exposures. Those images were cool. A film emulsion won't last anywhere near 100 years forget about 1000. Left out in the weather, I wouldn't trust them for 5.

Year-long exposure of Toronto skyline produces 'dreamy' image | The Star

Silver-halide-gelatin certainly has a limited life although the fact that people are getting usable images from decades-expired film suggests the lifespan is longer than 5 years. But traditional film emulsions are certainly not reliable over 100 or 1,000 years.

A 1000 year "emulsion" is not that hard to make. The photo-sensitive medium for these types of images is typically a thick layer of a chemical dye that is not light-safe. A thick layer has the interesting property that the dye in the upper part of the layer actually protects the dye in the middle and lower parts from exposure. It's not until the light has photo-oxidized the upper layer that the middle layer sees much light. And its not until the light has photo-oxidized the middle layer that the lower layer sees much light. Thus, the thick layer of dye naturally creates a natural ND filter on its own internal thickness and it takes an extremely long exposure to fully clear the dye from upper to lower parts of the thickness.

Getting the emulsion right for a 1,000 year exposure can do done with shorter, more intense exposures on thinner layers of dye. These tests help characterize how much light is needed to clear one micron thickness of dye. Then it's just a matter of a bit of math to estimate the required density and thickness of the dye layer.

**RGlasel** · 10-31-2018, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Lord Lucan

except for the late 20th century rise of vandalism in the name of nothing

Ah yes, more than a century after the First Nihilists, we have the New Nihilists. This is proof that the Second Law of Thermodynamics doesn't really apply to human society; the entrophy of unstructured violence towards authority always results in a new structure for authority.

1000 year photographs are just a cheap version of the 10,000 year clock. Similar to putting a laserdisc of humanity on unmanned interplanetary spacecraft, the only possible meaning is to its fabricators in the here and now. All the meaning is in the lead-up to producing it, once it is finished and put in place, it doesn't serve any purpose.

**Rondec** · 11-01-2018, 03:05 AM

I think this project is more about the concept of the thing than the thing itself. At the end of a thousand years, the artist won't be there to develop the photo anyway, but probably none of the gear would be there either. But using a shorter time span -- say 250 years wouldn't sound as impressive (although it would be similarly hard to pull off and actually get decent results).

normhead · 11-01-2018, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by photoptimist

Silver-halide-gelatin certainly has a limited life although the fact that people are getting usable images from decades-expired film suggests the lifespan is longer than 5 years. But traditional film emulsions are certainly not reliable over 100 or 1,000 years.

A 1000 year "emulsion" is not that hard to make. The photo-sensitive medium for these types of images is typically a thick layer of a chemical dye that is not light-safe. A thick layer has the interesting property that the dye in the upper part of the layer actually protects the dye in the middle and lower parts from exposure. It's not until the light has photo-oxidized the upper layer that the middle layer sees much light. And its not until the light has photo-oxidized the middle layer that the lower layer sees much light. Thus, the thick layer of dye naturally creates a natural ND filter on its own internal thickness and it takes an extremely long exposure to fully clear the dye from upper to lower parts of the thickness.

Getting the emulsion right for a 1,000 year exposure can do done with shorter, more intense exposures on thinner layers of dye. These tests help characterize how much light is needed to clear one micron thickness of dye. Then it's just a matter of a bit of math to estimate the required density and thickness of the dye layer.

Well OK then, let's get right on that.

Quote:

say 250 years wouldn't sound as impressive (although it would be similarly hard to pull off and actually get decent results).

We need to make ours for 2000 years. We want to be leaders in the number of years race.

10-30-2018, 05:30 AM - 1 Like	#1
graeme83 Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Cheshire Posts: 737	1000 year long exposure! Just came across this art project for a 1000 year long pinhole exposure Tahoe Timescape - Tahoe Public Art The idea being to record changes to the area over the years. Its a nice thought but I cant help but feel it will ultimately be disappointing, if indeed anyone ever bothers to retrieve and develop them after all that time. Any short term changes wont be picked up and the long term ones will just average out to a blurry mess over time surely? A timelapse of the same scene would be very cool, but not quite so simple!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Long exposure looks like multi-exposure	Paul the Sunman	General Photography	13	01-03-2017 09:43 PM
Long exposure shots, ND filters and multi-exposure averaging	rrstuff	Photographic Technique	17	10-19-2013 12:50 PM
A Year Long Exposure of the Toronto Skyline&Solargraphy	tessfully	Photographic Technique	10	01-05-2012 06:32 AM
How long will fresh batteries last in long exposure?	tnis0612	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	6	05-18-2010 09:11 AM
Night photography with K10D - High ISO short exposure VS Low ISO long exposure	pw-pix	Pentax DSLR Discussion	10	02-03-2008 01:37 AM

10-30-2018, 06:09 AM	#2
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	I'm still confused what the the guy expects. If it is a 1000-year long continuous exposure, how is that going show how bad humans are to the Earth and convince people 1000 years from now to kill themselves to save it, I wonder. Anything that moves or changes will end up a big blur or ghosted effect in the final image.

10-30-2018, 06:19 AM	#3
graeme83 Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Cheshire Posts: 737 Original Poster	It sounds like the guy (a philosopher) who came up with it thinks the final image will show distinct stages through the years when it wont. A good excuse to bring up climate change and be arty about it now but ultimately pointless by the year 3018.

10-30-2018, 06:20 AM - 1 Like	#4
victormeldrew Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: South West UK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,493	Makes no sense.

10-30-2018, 07:28 AM	#5
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,126	Jonathon Keats also has a 100-year project in Berlin ( Secret pinhole cameras to portray Berlin in 100-year exposure \| Reuters ). I agree that these ultra-long duration projects are more about provoking thought today than collecting images tomorrow. I doubt any of his cameras will survive a 1000 years -- erosion, corrosion, oxidation, dust, spiders, renovation, and vandals will take their toll. On the other hand, Michael Wesely does interesting work and gets really interesting images on multi-year urban landscape change (Unusually Long Exposure Photographs by Michael Wesely \| Amusing Planet).

10-30-2018, 08:07 AM	#6
graeme83 Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Cheshire Posts: 737 Original Poster	The 100 year one sounds a bit more realistic, and could potentially provide some interesting pictures I guess. Originally posted by photoptimist On the other hand, Michael Wesely does interesting work and gets really interesting images on multi-year urban landscape change (Unusually Long Exposure Photographs by Michael Wesely \| Amusing Planet). I like those, particularly the ones showing construction works, obviously the relatively shorter exposures of these do work with cityscapes rather well.

10-30-2018, 08:08 AM - 5 Likes	#7
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	1000 years from now... "Damn, way over exposed. Those nuclear blasts in 2085 must have done it."

10-30-2018, 10:09 AM - 3 Likes	#8
Lord Lucan Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: South Wales Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,963	From the link : "Pierced through a plate of 24-karat gold ..... camera custom made from copper for durability" Does this guy (or anyone) seriously expect a chunk of copper and gold, standing in the open, to be left alone for 1000 years? Let's see : in England 1000 years ago Danes were slogging it out against Saxons, rival armies scourging the countryside looting and burning. Shortly after that William the Conquerer went on his harrying; then came the time know as "The Anarchy" (less said about the better). A few smaller civil wars, then the Wars of the Roses, with the Lancastrians being particularly bad (Henry VII emptied French jails to raise his army). Then Henry VIII's official looting of the monasteries for anything of value. Then the Civil War, more looting and vandalism in the name of King/God/Parliament (pick one). Fairly stable since then (except for the late 20th century rise of vandalism in the name of nothing), but don't bank on it lasting, there will be new fights and wars over dwindling resources for a rising population, with copper becoming an early resource issue. Between the wars and anarchy no-one ever steals anything of course, do they? A lot happens in 1000 years. The people then will have totally different values and outlook from today. I doubt they will have much interest in someone's old vanity project even if it survives.

10-30-2018, 02:44 PM	#9
PJ1 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Toowoomba, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,484	It wouldn't necessarily be a blur. If enough young guys mooned that camera over 1,000 years, that might be the only compound image it recorded. But I agree - it is a vanity project calculated to draw attention to someone in the here and now.

10-30-2018, 03:12 PM - 1 Like	#10
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	A while ago there were pictures of Toronto (the CN tower being the most prominent feature) taken with a pinhole camera taped to tree. If memory serves me well they were one year exposures. Those images were cool. A film emulsion won't last anywhere near 100 years forget about 1000. Left out in the weather, I wouldn't trust them for 5. Year-long exposure of Toronto skyline produces 'dreamy' image \| The Star

10-31-2018, 06:25 AM	#11
victormeldrew Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: South West UK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,493	Originally posted by normhead A film emulsion won't last anywhere near 100 years forget about 1000. There's precious few buildings have survived that long, and even fewer that still 'work'. Whether or not the location would still be in the hands of the same society, or even any humans at all is quite unknown. Within 1000 years, I would expect raw materials such as gold and copper would be even more rare and valuable than now and 'scrap' like a box on a hillside that has long since been forgotten about and abandoned would be quickly appropriated. A 1000 year timelapse would be a more feasible project, only requiring successive people to take over the chore of setting up a camera for a shot every once in a while. We know from 'pitch drop' experiments that it's possible to keep up an activity for centuries if it is interesting enough.

10-31-2018, 07:53 AM	#12
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,126	Originally posted by normhead A while ago there were pictures of Toronto (the CN tower being the most prominent feature) taken with a pinhole camera taped to tree. If memory serves me well they were one year exposures. Those images were cool. A film emulsion won't last anywhere near 100 years forget about 1000. Left out in the weather, I wouldn't trust them for 5. Year-long exposure of Toronto skyline produces 'dreamy' image \| The Star Silver-halide-gelatin certainly has a limited life although the fact that people are getting usable images from decades-expired film suggests the lifespan is longer than 5 years. But traditional film emulsions are certainly not reliable over 100 or 1,000 years. A 1000 year "emulsion" is not that hard to make. The photo-sensitive medium for these types of images is typically a thick layer of a chemical dye that is not light-safe. A thick layer has the interesting property that the dye in the upper part of the layer actually protects the dye in the middle and lower parts from exposure. It's not until the light has photo-oxidized the upper layer that the middle layer sees much light. And its not until the light has photo-oxidized the middle layer that the lower layer sees much light. Thus, the thick layer of dye naturally creates a natural ND filter on its own internal thickness and it takes an extremely long exposure to fully clear the dye from upper to lower parts of the thickness. Getting the emulsion right for a 1,000 year exposure can do done with shorter, more intense exposures on thinner layers of dye. These tests help characterize how much light is needed to clear one micron thickness of dye. Then it's just a matter of a bit of math to estimate the required density and thickness of the dye layer.

10-31-2018, 08:33 AM	#13
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,228	Originally posted by Lord Lucan except for the late 20th century rise of vandalism in the name of nothing Ah yes, more than a century after the First Nihilists, we have the New Nihilists. This is proof that the Second Law of Thermodynamics doesn't really apply to human society; the entrophy of unstructured violence towards authority always results in a new structure for authority. 1000 year photographs are just a cheap version of the 10,000 year clock. Similar to putting a laserdisc of humanity on unmanned interplanetary spacecraft, the only possible meaning is to its fabricators in the here and now. All the meaning is in the lead-up to producing it, once it is finished and put in place, it doesn't serve any purpose.

11-01-2018, 03:05 AM	#14
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	I think this project is more about the concept of the thing than the thing itself. At the end of a thousand years, the artist won't be there to develop the photo anyway, but probably none of the gear would be there either. But using a shorter time span -- say 250 years wouldn't sound as impressive (although it would be similarly hard to pull off and actually get decent results).

11-01-2018, 06:38 AM	#15
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by photoptimist Silver-halide-gelatin certainly has a limited life although the fact that people are getting usable images from decades-expired film suggests the lifespan is longer than 5 years. But traditional film emulsions are certainly not reliable over 100 or 1,000 years. A 1000 year "emulsion" is not that hard to make. The photo-sensitive medium for these types of images is typically a thick layer of a chemical dye that is not light-safe. A thick layer has the interesting property that the dye in the upper part of the layer actually protects the dye in the middle and lower parts from exposure. It's not until the light has photo-oxidized the upper layer that the middle layer sees much light. And its not until the light has photo-oxidized the middle layer that the lower layer sees much light. Thus, the thick layer of dye naturally creates a natural ND filter on its own internal thickness and it takes an extremely long exposure to fully clear the dye from upper to lower parts of the thickness. Getting the emulsion right for a 1,000 year exposure can do done with shorter, more intense exposures on thinner layers of dye. These tests help characterize how much light is needed to clear one micron thickness of dye. Then it's just a matter of a bit of math to estimate the required density and thickness of the dye layer. Well OK then, let's get right on that. Quote: say 250 years wouldn't sound as impressive (although it would be similarly hard to pull off and actually get decent results). We need to make ours for 2000 years. We want to be leaders in the number of years race.