Photo Taken Date vs Making Date

RoundWharf · 02-01-2019, 08:34 PM

I have this dilemma... there's some local art shows I want to enter with some photos I took years ago but reprocessed the raw files (adjustments, touch-ups, gradients, etc) in the last year or two.

Local show guidelines say work needs to have been made in the last 3 years.

Am I in the wrong to submit these images even if the date when they were taken are beyond 3 years or am I in the right since I made [changes to] them much more recently?

**bwgv001** · 02-01-2019, 08:44 PM

Does it say photos taken? If so, I think they would be too old.

bigdavephoto · 02-01-2019, 08:51 PM

Just in my opinion, if the rules of the contest state the photo must be made in the last three years, to me, that means the photo must have been taken in the last three years.

See, the way I am looking at this is, if I had a roll of film that I ran through my camera 15 years ago, and I had that roll processed last week. Did I make the photos last week? No I didn't. To me, the words "made" and "taken" are interchangeable in this case and I take them to mean when was the shutter button was pushed.

Like I said, just my opinion. Others may have different opinions.

RoundWharf · 02-01-2019, 08:53 PM

One cryptically says, "Work must be created in the last three years." This one is strictly a photography show.

The other says, "Work must be original, completed within last three years and not exhibited at [gallery name] before." This one is a mix of photography and other arts.

There is no mention of "photos taken", ergo my consternation.

edom31 · 02-01-2019, 08:55 PM

This is a "lawyer" question - what is work? Photo taken or Photo + Post Procs? As you put it, it is ambiguous, thus could go either way.

**aslyfox** · 02-01-2019, 09:05 PM - **3 Likes**

why not just ask the people in charge?

if you win but are then challenged as to when the image was captured by your camera will you tell the truth?

I would rather know the submission doesn't fit per those in charge who would decide if it qualifies if later questioned

but that is just me

YMMV

**monochrome** · 02-01-2019, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by RoundWharf

I have this dilemma... there's some local art shows I want to enter with some photos I took years ago but reprocessed the raw files (adjustments, touch-ups, gradients, etc) in the last year or two.

Local show guidelines say work needs to have been made in the last 3 years.

Am I in the wrong to submit these images even if the date when they were taken are beyond 3 years or am I in the right since I made [changes to] them much more recently?

If it was a wet print from film negative contest and you dodged and burned a new, updated, unique print from an old negative, when was the work made*? It comes down to the definition of ‘made’. If those are the exact words I think you would be within the guidelines to submit your new work.

Why wouldn’t you just ask the sponsors what they’ll accept.

* Think about the evolution of Ansel Adams’ Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico prints over the years between 1941 and his death. http://anseladams.com/vintage-moonrise-hernandez-new-mexico/ Each print Is identified and valued by the year it was printed. The passage suggests Adams’ exposure of sky changed over time.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-01-2019 at 09:50 PM.

**dms** · 02-01-2019, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by RoundWharf

One cryptically says, "Work must be created in the last three years." This one is strictly a photography show.

The other says, "Work must be original, completed within last three years and not exhibited at [gallery name] before." This one is a mix of photography and other arts.

I don't agree about asking in both cases. The sponsor is also interpreting their own rules, and that may depend on who in the organization you ask. I would look at the rule and reasonably decide what it means: If I were thinking of submitting I would submit in the latter case, as it was completed within last 3 years. But in the former case, I would ask for the opinion in writing, as w/o it I would take it to mean the date the picture was taken (created as opposed to pp which is more equivalent to "refined").

**aslyfox** · 02-02-2019, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by dms

. . . The sponsor is also interpreting their own rules, and that may depend on who in the organization you ask. . . . I would ask for the opinion in writing. . . .

never hurts to get a " ruling " in writing and to find out exactly who is issuing it.

I think this thread show that " reasonable minds " can differ about what the rules of a competition mean

and that it isn't good when rules are subject to possible misunderstanding.

**rogerstg** · 02-02-2019, 09:09 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by bigdavephoto

Just in my opinion, if the rules of the contest state the photo must be made in the last three years, to me, that means the photo must have been taken in the last three years.

I agree. "Taken" and "made" are synonymous and which word is used depends on the user. Most people in the US say "taken," whereas people involved in the arts use "made."
I think that if we look to the purpose of the three year rule, it is to encourage participation and competition by excluding the use of a fabulous winning photograph year after year after year. Using the processing date of the raw file as the "made" date seems contrary to the purpose of the rule.

Wheatfield · 02-03-2019, 09:36 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by RoundWharf

I have this dilemma... there's some local art shows I want to enter with some photos I took years ago but reprocessed the raw files (adjustments, touch-ups, gradients, etc) in the last year or two.

Local show guidelines say work needs to have been made in the last 3 years.

Am I in the wrong to submit these images even if the date when they were taken are beyond 3 years or am I in the right since I made [changes to] them much more recently?

I would say that the intent of the rule is that the image capture is within the last three years.
You can lawyer up and pretend that the letter or the rule is ambiguous, but the intent seems pretty plain.

RoundWharf · 02-10-2019, 04:43 PM - **1 Like**

Hi all, thanks for the great discussion. Sorry for late reply -- computer I was using last six years suddenly died on me this past week.

I did end up asking the people in charge -- although one blew me off, the other organizer's response was quite interesting:

Quote:

This rule would apply if your work has been sitting on a shelf, on a wall, or on display for more than three years as a finished piece of artwork.

We would like the art to be fresh. If you have an old photograph and just recently updated, manipulated, collaged, etc. then we would welcome it to be juried into our show.

**aslyfox** · 02-10-2019, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by RoundWharf

Hi all, thanks for the great discussion. Sorry for late reply -- computer I was using last six years suddenly died on me this past week.

I did end up asking the people in charge -- although one blew me off, the other organizer's response was quite interesting:

Quote:
This rule would apply if your work has been sitting on a shelf, on a wall, or on display for more than three years as a finished piece of artwork.

We would like the art to be fresh. If you have an old photograph and just recently updated, manipulated, collaged, etc. then we would welcome it to be juried into our show.

sounds like it's ok to take an image captured years ago and " improve " it now and submit the " improvement " for the program

good luck with your efforts

**TwoUptons** · 02-11-2019, 12:32 PM

My criteria would be based on whether I considered it a new work myself.

If all I did was select the image, brighten it a touch, and hit print, I haven’t changed it in any creative way, so to me it would be unchanged from the date the image was captured.

If I spent some time on significant post-processing, such that the end result is noticeably and creatively different from the original, then to me it’s a different work.

That’s consistent with the Adams example and the feedback the OP got from the organizers of the contest...

-Eric

**aslyfox** · 02-11-2019, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by TwoUptons

My criteria would be based on whether I considered it a new work myself.

If all I did was select the image, brighten it a touch, and hit print, I haven’t changed it in any creative way, so to me it would be unchanged from the date the image was captured.

If I spent some time on significant post-processing, such that the end result is noticeably and creatively different from the original, then to me it’s a different work.

That’s consistent with the Adams example and the feedback the OP got from the organizers of the contest...

-Eric

actually, that is a more detailed and better description of what I meant with the terms I was using:

" improve "

" Improvement "

02-01-2019, 08:34 PM	#1
RoundWharf Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Connecticut Posts: 72	Photo Taken Date vs Making Date I have this dilemma... there's some local art shows I want to enter with some photos I took years ago but reprocessed the raw files (adjustments, touch-ups, gradients, etc) in the last year or two. Local show guidelines say work needs to have been made in the last 3 years. Am I in the wrong to submit these images even if the date when they were taken are beyond 3 years or am I in the right since I made [changes to] them much more recently?

02-01-2019, 08:51 PM	#3
bigdavephoto Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: East central Indiana Photos: Gallery Posts: 893	Just in my opinion, if the rules of the contest state the photo must be made in the last three years, to me, that means the photo must have been taken in the last three years. See, the way I am looking at this is, if I had a roll of film that I ran through my camera 15 years ago, and I had that roll processed last week. Did I make the photos last week? No I didn't. To me, the words "made" and "taken" are interchangeable in this case and I take them to mean when was the shutter button was pushed. Like I said, just my opinion. Others may have different opinions. Last edited by bigdavephoto; 02-01-2019 at 08:51 PM. Reason: spelling

02-02-2019, 05:23 AM	#9
aslyfox Seeker of Knowledge Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Topeka, Kansas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 24,581	Originally posted by dms . . . The sponsor is also interpreting their own rules, and that may depend on who in the organization you ask. . . . I would ask for the opinion in writing. . . . never hurts to get a " ruling " in writing and to find out exactly who is issuing it. I think this thread show that " reasonable minds " can differ about what the rules of a competition mean and that it isn't good when rules are subject to possible misunderstanding. Last edited by aslyfox; 02-02-2019 at 06:10 AM.

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02-01-2019, 08:44 PM	#2
bwgv001 Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Alabama Photos: Gallery Posts: 697	Does it say photos taken? If so, I think they would be too old.

02-01-2019, 08:53 PM	#4
RoundWharf Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Connecticut Posts: 72 Original Poster	One cryptically says, "Work must be created in the last three years." This one is strictly a photography show. The other says, "Work must be original, completed within last three years and not exhibited at [gallery name] before." This one is a mix of photography and other arts. There is no mention of "photos taken", ergo my consternation.

02-01-2019, 08:55 PM	#5
edom31 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Garden City, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,349	This is a "lawyer" question - what is work? Photo taken or Photo + Post Procs? As you put it, it is ambiguous, thus could go either way.

02-01-2019, 09:05 PM - 3 Likes	#6
aslyfox Seeker of Knowledge Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Topeka, Kansas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 24,581	why not just ask the people in charge? if you win but are then challenged as to when the image was captured by your camera will you tell the truth? I would rather know the submission doesn't fit per those in charge who would decide if it qualifies if later questioned but that is just me YMMV

02-01-2019, 09:32 PM	#7
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by RoundWharf I have this dilemma... there's some local art shows I want to enter with some photos I took years ago but reprocessed the raw files (adjustments, touch-ups, gradients, etc) in the last year or two. Local show guidelines say work needs to have been made in the last 3 years. Am I in the wrong to submit these images even if the date when they were taken are beyond 3 years or am I in the right since I made [changes to] them much more recently? If it was a wet print from film negative contest and you dodged and burned a new, updated, unique print from an old negative, when was the work made? It comes down to the definition of ‘made’. If those are the exact words I think you would be within the guidelines to submit your new work. Why wouldn’t you just ask the sponsors what they’ll accept. Think about the evolution of Ansel Adams’ Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico prints over the years between 1941 and his death. http://anseladams.com/vintage-moonrise-hernandez-new-mexico/ Each print Is identified and valued by the year it was printed. The passage suggests Adams’ exposure of sky changed over time. Last edited by monochrome; 02-01-2019 at 09:50 PM.

02-01-2019, 11:22 PM	#8
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	Originally posted by RoundWharf One cryptically says, "Work must be created in the last three years." This one is strictly a photography show. The other says, "Work must be original, completed within last three years and not exhibited at [gallery name] before." This one is a mix of photography and other arts. I don't agree about asking in both cases. The sponsor is also interpreting their own rules, and that may depend on who in the organization you ask. I would look at the rule and reasonably decide what it means: If I were thinking of submitting I would submit in the latter case, as it was completed within last 3 years. But in the former case, I would ask for the opinion in writing, as w/o it I would take it to mean the date the picture was taken (created as opposed to pp which is more equivalent to "refined").

02-02-2019, 09:09 AM - 1 Like	#10
rogerstg Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Rhode Island Photos: Albums Posts: 1,168	Originally posted by bigdavephoto Just in my opinion, if the rules of the contest state the photo must be made in the last three years, to me, that means the photo must have been taken in the last three years. I agree. "Taken" and "made" are synonymous and which word is used depends on the user. Most people in the US say "taken," whereas people involved in the arts use "made." I think that if we look to the purpose of the three year rule, it is to encourage participation and competition by excluding the use of a fabulous winning photograph year after year after year. Using the processing date of the raw file as the "made" date seems contrary to the purpose of the rule.

02-03-2019, 09:36 AM - 1 Like	#11
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by RoundWharf I have this dilemma... there's some local art shows I want to enter with some photos I took years ago but reprocessed the raw files (adjustments, touch-ups, gradients, etc) in the last year or two. Local show guidelines say work needs to have been made in the last 3 years. Am I in the wrong to submit these images even if the date when they were taken are beyond 3 years or am I in the right since I made [changes to] them much more recently? I would say that the intent of the rule is that the image capture is within the last three years. You can lawyer up and pretend that the letter or the rule is ambiguous, but the intent seems pretty plain.

02-10-2019, 04:43 PM - 1 Like	#12
RoundWharf Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Connecticut Posts: 72 Original Poster	Hi all, thanks for the great discussion. Sorry for late reply -- computer I was using last six years suddenly died on me this past week. I did end up asking the people in charge -- although one blew me off, the other organizer's response was quite interesting: Quote: This rule would apply if your work has been sitting on a shelf, on a wall, or on display for more than three years as a finished piece of artwork. We would like the art to be fresh. If you have an old photograph and just recently updated, manipulated, collaged, etc. then we would welcome it to be juried into our show.

02-10-2019, 05:39 PM	#13
aslyfox Seeker of Knowledge Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Topeka, Kansas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 24,581	Originally posted by RoundWharf Hi all, thanks for the great discussion. Sorry for late reply -- computer I was using last six years suddenly died on me this past week. I did end up asking the people in charge -- although one blew me off, the other organizer's response was quite interesting: Quote: This rule would apply if your work has been sitting on a shelf, on a wall, or on display for more than three years as a finished piece of artwork. We would like the art to be fresh. If you have an old photograph and just recently updated, manipulated, collaged, etc. then we would welcome it to be juried into our show. sounds like it's ok to take an image captured years ago and " improve " it now and submit the " improvement " for the program good luck with your efforts

02-11-2019, 12:32 PM	#14
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,213	My criteria would be based on whether I considered it a new work myself. If all I did was select the image, brighten it a touch, and hit print, I haven’t changed it in any creative way, so to me it would be unchanged from the date the image was captured. If I spent some time on significant post-processing, such that the end result is noticeably and creatively different from the original, then to me it’s a different work. That’s consistent with the Adams example and the feedback the OP got from the organizers of the contest... -Eric

02-11-2019, 02:05 PM	#15
aslyfox Seeker of Knowledge Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Topeka, Kansas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 24,581	Originally posted by TwoUptons My criteria would be based on whether I considered it a new work myself. If all I did was select the image, brighten it a touch, and hit print, I haven’t changed it in any creative way, so to me it would be unchanged from the date the image was captured. If I spent some time on significant post-processing, such that the end result is noticeably and creatively different from the original, then to me it’s a different work. That’s consistent with the Adams example and the feedback the OP got from the organizers of the contest... -Eric actually, that is a more detailed and better description of what I meant with the terms I was using: " improve " " Improvement "