The myth of Robert Capa.

CarlJF · 02-18-2019, 09:44 AM

The guy definitely wasn't a coward, if anything he had lot of guts! Not many people would have got where he has gone for the sake of a few pictures. He just wasn't completely honest either. And this is somewhat the irony, his work would still have been considered great even if he, or his editors, would have simply stuck to the truth, which was still way out of the ordinary. No matter what, his pictures are some of the best depictions of what happend at these times. It's just unfortunate that Capa felt the need to built fancy stories around them. Maybe he just caught himself in the character he created, one story leading to another...

Wheatfield · 02-18-2019, 09:58 AM - **2 Likes**

It’s pretty easy. You throw shade on what has been documented as fact, call into question the honesty of the people who were eyewitnesses to an event, write blog posts (or if one is an “important” person, he or she can stand behind a dais and spew whatever lies they think they can get away with) dismissing facts as fiction and inventing your own facts for the consumption of the suckers that are caught in your thrall.
Sadly, a lie will make it halfway around the world before the truth has it’s pants on. Liars and charlatans depend on this bit of truth to control people with their lies.

We are seeing more and more of this every day, and it is a rather disturbing trend, but it feeds off of the tribalism that appears to be consuming people’s brains, and there are many bad people who have found that using this as raw meat is a great way to get to the levers of power.
Historically it always ends badly for them, and history does have a habit of repeating itself.

Whether or not one believes the original version of Capa’s D-Day story or the recently invented one that is designed to dismantle Capa’s legacy, the important fact is that on D-Day Capa was not a combatant. His job was to get in, get pictures, and get out alive with them. Sticking around on Omaha Beach for any longer than was necessary to do that would have been going against what he was hired to do.

stevebrot · 02-18-2019, 10:14 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by CarlJF

He just wasn't completely honest either.

Perhaps, though it should be noted that much of the evidence in this case is "lack of evidence". It is ridiculous to suggest that more than ~72 35mm frames were shot at Omaha Beach. Any account that suggests changing film on a Contax II in the surf zone on the beach is incredible IMHO. It is not ridiculous to suggest that a camera jam may have reduced the actual count and/or that multiple frames may have been compromised due to being soaked in sea water prior to being wound back into the cassette and that the film was subsequently mishandled in the lab. The conventional narrative suggests all were part of the story.

Having shot with a camera similar to the Contax II, I can confidently state that coming back with even a handful of usable frames under those field conditions is impressive, regardless of the backing narrative. Is it likely that the narrative is incorrect or incomplete? Absolutely! Is it likely that it was massaged for the sake of effect? Given the nature of war accounts, the same is quite possible. Was Capa a compulsive liar and fake at the head of a multi-layer conspiracy to promote his product and brand (claimed by the article)? The evidence is lacking.

Steve

Dartmoor Dave · 02-18-2019, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

It’s pretty easy. You throw shade on what has been documented as fact, call into question the honesty of the people who were eyewitnesses to an event, write blog posts (or if one is an “important” person, he or she can stand behind a dais and spew whatever lies they think they can get away with) dismissing facts as fiction and inventing your own facts for the consumption of the suckers that are caught in your thrall.Sadly, a lie will make it halfway around the world before the truth has it’s pants on. Liars and charlatans depend on this bit of truth to control people with their lies.

You've misquoted me out of context, and I really don't like that. My point in my first paragraph was that "alternate" and "alternative" mean different things. But I agree completely that the fact that Capa went to Omaha beach voluntarily to be a witness to history was an heroic act in itself.

Wheatfield · 02-18-2019, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by Dartmoor Dave

You've misquoted me out of context, and I really don't like that. My point in my first paragraph was that "alternate" and "alternative" mean different things. But I agree completely that the fact that Capa went to Omaha beach voluntarily to be a witness to history was an heroic act in itself.

Not my intention.

CarlJF · 02-18-2019, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Was Capa a compulsive liar and fake at the head of a multi-layer conspiracy to promote his product and brand (claimed by the article)? The evidence is lacking.

Even if things probably have gone as you described, which makes total sense and is completely acceptable by anyone, there was no need for him (or his editors) to suggest he would have got more pictures if not for the mistake of a 15 years old trainee in the darkroom. Or to claim that he was reported MIA for 48 hours with orbituiary ready to be sent in the mail... Just getting on the beah and back with a few pictures was in itself a feit, no need to inflate it beyond reality.
Now, add to this the different stories he told about his Fallen Soldier picture, and all the evidences showing that none of these could fit in, and it starts to look like someone who wasn't 100% reliable as to what he says is truly what happened... Or who often boast to the point where it's difficult to trace the line between truth and fantasy. It's just that and nothing more...

Talking about "compulsive liar" and "the head of a multi-layer conspiracy" is way overboard. I never said that and certainly didn't want anyone to think it's what I wanted to meant.

stevebrot · 02-18-2019, 12:03 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by CarlJF

Talking about "compulsive liar" and "the head of a multi-layer conspiracy" is way overboard. I never said that and certainly didn't want anyone to think it's what I wanted to meant.

Indeed...I was referencing the original article linked.

Steve

dsmithhfx · 02-19-2019, 08:19 AM

Revisionism. There's a lot of that going on.

The True Story Behind an Iconic Vietnam War Photo Was Nearly Erased ? Until Now - The New York Times

CarlJF · 02-19-2019, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by dsmithhfx

Revisionism. There's a lot of that going on.

The True Story Behind an Iconic Vietnam War Photo Was Nearly Erased ? Until Now - The New York Times

I would not call that revisionism, and it's also a totally different matter than the Capa pictures. It's more about the difficulty of identifying someone on a picture taken decades ago during a particularly chaotic event. Nobody questions the integrity of the photographer. And he himself didn't tell anything outside what would have been expected of him at this moment and place, without any outstanding claim. It's own assesment of the idendity of the soldier, made many years after the fact, is just based on common sense. It isn't based on a story requiring some very uncommon situation or barely believable luck (or unluck) to stand. Most people would have come to the same conclusion with the same informations he had The different identity now proposed is based on another set of pictures, from a different photographer, of the same event, with a better view of the wounded soldier, leading to a different identification. It doesn't suggest at all that the original photographer added some fictional facts around a true event, or that he staged the picture... Which are the questions raised by some people about the stories behind some of Capa's pictures: what is real and what isn't, and where's the line between both...

dsmithhfx · 02-19-2019, 09:42 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by CarlJF

I would not call that revisionism, and it's also a totally different matter than the Capa pictures. It's more about the difficulty of identifying someone on a picture taken decades ago during a particularly chaotic event. Nobody questions the integrity of the photographer. And he himself didn't tell anything outside what would have been expected of him at this moment and place, without any outstanding claim. It's own assesment of the idendity of the soldier, made many years after the fact, is just based on common sense. It isn't based on a story requiring some very uncommon situation or barely believable luck (or unluck) to stand. Most people would have come to the same conclusion with the same informations he had The different identity now proposed is based on another set of pictures, from a different photographer, of the same event, with a better view of the wounded soldier, leading to a different identification. It doesn't suggest at all that the original photographer added some fictional facts around a true event, or that he staged the picture... Which are the questions raised by some people about the stories behind some of Capa's pictures: what is real and what isn't, and where's the line between both...

History can, and should be revised in light of new information.

02-18-2019, 09:58 AM - 2 Likes	#17
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,986	It’s pretty easy. You throw shade on what has been documented as fact, call into question the honesty of the people who were eyewitnesses to an event, write blog posts (or if one is an “important” person, he or she can stand behind a dais and spew whatever lies they think they can get away with) dismissing facts as fiction and inventing your own facts for the consumption of the suckers that are caught in your thrall. Sadly, a lie will make it halfway around the world before the truth has it’s pants on. Liars and charlatans depend on this bit of truth to control people with their lies. We are seeing more and more of this every day, and it is a rather disturbing trend, but it feeds off of the tribalism that appears to be consuming people’s brains, and there are many bad people who have found that using this as raw meat is a great way to get to the levers of power. Historically it always ends badly for them, and history does have a habit of repeating itself. Whether or not one believes the original version of Capa’s D-Day story or the recently invented one that is designed to dismantle Capa’s legacy, the important fact is that on D-Day Capa was not a combatant. His job was to get in, get pictures, and get out alive with them. Sticking around on Omaha Beach for any longer than was necessary to do that would have been going against what he was hired to do. Last edited by Wheatfield; 02-18-2019 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Quote deleted.

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02-18-2019, 09:44 AM	#16
CarlJF Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,185	The guy definitely wasn't a coward, if anything he had lot of guts! Not many people would have got where he has gone for the sake of a few pictures. He just wasn't completely honest either. And this is somewhat the irony, his work would still have been considered great even if he, or his editors, would have simply stuck to the truth, which was still way out of the ordinary. No matter what, his pictures are some of the best depictions of what happend at these times. It's just unfortunate that Capa felt the need to built fancy stories around them. Maybe he just caught himself in the character he created, one story leading to another...

02-18-2019, 10:14 AM - 3 Likes	#18
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by CarlJF He just wasn't completely honest either. Perhaps, though it should be noted that much of the evidence in this case is "lack of evidence". It is ridiculous to suggest that more than ~72 35mm frames were shot at Omaha Beach. Any account that suggests changing film on a Contax II in the surf zone on the beach is incredible IMHO. It is not ridiculous to suggest that a camera jam may have reduced the actual count and/or that multiple frames may have been compromised due to being soaked in sea water prior to being wound back into the cassette and that the film was subsequently mishandled in the lab. The conventional narrative suggests all were part of the story. Having shot with a camera similar to the Contax II, I can confidently state that coming back with even a handful of usable frames under those field conditions is impressive, regardless of the backing narrative. Is it likely that the narrative is incorrect or incomplete? Absolutely! Is it likely that it was massaged for the sake of effect? Given the nature of war accounts, the same is quite possible. Was Capa a compulsive liar and fake at the head of a multi-layer conspiracy to promote his product and brand (claimed by the article)? The evidence is lacking. Steve

02-18-2019, 10:20 AM	#19
Dartmoor Dave Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Dartmoor, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,888	Originally posted by Wheatfield It’s pretty easy. You throw shade on what has been documented as fact, call into question the honesty of the people who were eyewitnesses to an event, write blog posts (or if one is an “important” person, he or she can stand behind a dais and spew whatever lies they think they can get away with) dismissing facts as fiction and inventing your own facts for the consumption of the suckers that are caught in your thrall.Sadly, a lie will make it halfway around the world before the truth has it’s pants on. Liars and charlatans depend on this bit of truth to control people with their lies. You've misquoted me out of context, and I really don't like that. My point in my first paragraph was that "alternate" and "alternative" mean different things. But I agree completely that the fact that Capa went to Omaha beach voluntarily to be a witness to history was an heroic act in itself.

02-18-2019, 11:18 AM	#20
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,986	Originally posted by Dartmoor Dave You've misquoted me out of context, and I really don't like that. My point in my first paragraph was that "alternate" and "alternative" mean different things. But I agree completely that the fact that Capa went to Omaha beach voluntarily to be a witness to history was an heroic act in itself. Not my intention.

02-18-2019, 11:43 AM	#21
CarlJF Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,185	Originally posted by stevebrot Was Capa a compulsive liar and fake at the head of a multi-layer conspiracy to promote his product and brand (claimed by the article)? The evidence is lacking. Even if things probably have gone as you described, which makes total sense and is completely acceptable by anyone, there was no need for him (or his editors) to suggest he would have got more pictures if not for the mistake of a 15 years old trainee in the darkroom. Or to claim that he was reported MIA for 48 hours with orbituiary ready to be sent in the mail... Just getting on the beah and back with a few pictures was in itself a feit, no need to inflate it beyond reality. Now, add to this the different stories he told about his Fallen Soldier picture, and all the evidences showing that none of these could fit in, and it starts to look like someone who wasn't 100% reliable as to what he says is truly what happened... Or who often boast to the point where it's difficult to trace the line between truth and fantasy. It's just that and nothing more... Talking about "compulsive liar" and "the head of a multi-layer conspiracy" is way overboard. I never said that and certainly didn't want anyone to think it's what I wanted to meant.

02-18-2019, 12:03 PM - 2 Likes	#22
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by CarlJF Talking about "compulsive liar" and "the head of a multi-layer conspiracy" is way overboard. I never said that and certainly didn't want anyone to think it's what I wanted to meant. Indeed...I was referencing the original article linked. Steve

02-19-2019, 08:19 AM	#23
dsmithhfx Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Toronto Posts: 5,151 Original Poster	Revisionism. There's a lot of that going on. The True Story Behind an Iconic Vietnam War Photo Was Nearly Erased ? Until Now - The New York Times

02-19-2019, 09:14 AM	#24
CarlJF Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,185	Originally posted by dsmithhfx Revisionism. There's a lot of that going on. The True Story Behind an Iconic Vietnam War Photo Was Nearly Erased ? Until Now - The New York Times I would not call that revisionism, and it's also a totally different matter than the Capa pictures. It's more about the difficulty of identifying someone on a picture taken decades ago during a particularly chaotic event. Nobody questions the integrity of the photographer. And he himself didn't tell anything outside what would have been expected of him at this moment and place, without any outstanding claim. It's own assesment of the idendity of the soldier, made many years after the fact, is just based on common sense. It isn't based on a story requiring some very uncommon situation or barely believable luck (or unluck) to stand. Most people would have come to the same conclusion with the same informations he had The different identity now proposed is based on another set of pictures, from a different photographer, of the same event, with a better view of the wounded soldier, leading to a different identification. It doesn't suggest at all that the original photographer added some fictional facts around a true event, or that he staged the picture... Which are the questions raised by some people about the stories behind some of Capa's pictures: what is real and what isn't, and where's the line between both...

02-19-2019, 09:42 AM - 2 Likes	#25
dsmithhfx Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Toronto Posts: 5,151 Original Poster	Originally posted by CarlJF I would not call that revisionism, and it's also a totally different matter than the Capa pictures. It's more about the difficulty of identifying someone on a picture taken decades ago during a particularly chaotic event. Nobody questions the integrity of the photographer. And he himself didn't tell anything outside what would have been expected of him at this moment and place, without any outstanding claim. It's own assesment of the idendity of the soldier, made many years after the fact, is just based on common sense. It isn't based on a story requiring some very uncommon situation or barely believable luck (or unluck) to stand. Most people would have come to the same conclusion with the same informations he had The different identity now proposed is based on another set of pictures, from a different photographer, of the same event, with a better view of the wounded soldier, leading to a different identification. It doesn't suggest at all that the original photographer added some fictional facts around a true event, or that he staged the picture... Which are the questions raised by some people about the stories behind some of Capa's pictures: what is real and what isn't, and where's the line between both... History can, and should be revised in light of new information.