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04-05-2019, 02:31 PM - 5 Likes   #1
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I love Pentax but good Lord...

...I'll probably end up buying a Sony mirrorless in the next few years.

I've got a K1-II, grip, Pentax 24-70, 70-200 2.8, 50* 1.4, 35 f/2 HD, 100 2.8WR, and even an Irix 15mm. I've also got a K10D and a K30(technically my daughter's). The bodies are built to survive the harshest elements. The lenses are also built like tanks with great IQ and relatively fast focus motors... but...

...Pentax AF for anything other than easily trackable objects like a bird flying more than a few hundred meters away is severely lacking. The absence of an eye-AF equivalent for portraits as well leaves me guessing and often times bracketing.


I know Pentax could implement via firmware some sort of eye-tracking ability since the K-1 uses a phase-detect system for static shots, but they choose not to. Pentax's AI focus tracking also kinda works but really doesn't for subjects that aren't traveling in a linear motion (try shooting a soccer or hockey game one day)...

The hardware is there.. the software isn't. That's the best I could probably sum up a TLDR summary.

On the other hand, Sony hasn't been sitting on their laurels. They recently released v5.0 firmware for the Sony A9. It practically redefines that camera and adds new AF functionality on top of what was already a great system. I know the A9 is stupid expensive right now otherwise I would have bought one, but Sony is also going to release firmware for their A7 III which would give full time predictive AF akin to the A9.

Not to say Sony's perfect. I don't think I'd take an A9 which costs north of $4k into a rain forest. They don't build their bodies like Pentax does. The same goes for the A7 series.


But yet, I'm still on firmware 1.03 for the K1-II which only gives support for a DA lens I'd probably never buy. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Sorry for the rant. Hate all you want. I'm a loyal Pentax owner just like most of you, but goddamn... people wonder why Pentax lost its mojo and never got it back. I think the answer's obvious.



04-05-2019, 02:39 PM - 4 Likes   #2
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looks like we got a jumper here....
04-05-2019, 02:48 PM - 2 Likes   #3
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The Sony you mentioned is currenly selling for about €3900- euros. The Pentax K-1II for about €2000 euros in my country. Such a price difference should result in a different set of features and it does. If the features of the Sony are of more importance to you than those of your Pentax you possibly might have bought the wrong camera...
04-05-2019, 02:50 PM - 6 Likes   #4
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In the years I've been shooting Pentax - which is most of the years I've been into photography - continuous AF tracking has probably been the single most griped-about issue. Often with no justification (because the user isn't bringing skill to the table), sometimes with some justification (because they're applying good techniques and have learned their equipment), and only occasionally with full justification because - for their specific use cases - there genuinely are better cameras. But as you rightly point out, better in one area doesn't usually mean better in all areas, and so we have choices to make based on our own use cases.

For my own use cases, Pentax AF works very well - but I'm not an especially demanding user and my expectations aren't as high as some folks. So, I work with what I've got, and do the best that I can with it. Most of the time, I'm perfectly satisfied.

I can't recall the thread, but someone recently posted a fascinating comparison of test results from different manufacturers' AF systems. What was really interesting is that while some systems were very good at certain specific things, they were terrible at others, and no single system was great in every scenario (Sony included). So it really does come down to use case. If you can find me a camera that's best for portraiture, landscape, astro, sport, birds in flight, tracking faces, tracking fast-moving vehicles, doesn't suffer from PDAF artefacts from the sensor, is weather resistant, heavily built, has in-body image stabilisation and can be bought for < $1,500, with lenses that perform quickly enough to leverage the AF performance yet don't cost a kidney each, I'll buy one

Incidentally, I'm not 100% tied to Pentax. I shoot Sony A-mount and - for adapted vintage and A-mount lenses - E-mount too, though I don't have any of the very recent gear. I like my Sony gear a lot, but not enough to drag me away from Pentax....

Maybe I really am tied to Pentax after all

Seriously, though, there's nothing wrong with shooting more than one system if you need the best performance in conflicting areas. So long as you bear in mind the cost of compatible lenses.

There probably is something wrong with expecting one system to do everything brilliantly, though. I certainly don't know of one right now...


Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-05-2019 at 03:09 PM.
04-05-2019, 02:55 PM - 2 Likes   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by amstel78 Quote
The hardware is there.. the software isn't.
They're trying, with the APIs for other developers and such, but I agree. For example, they released the GR III (what a great camera) but the Android app will be made compatible at some point in late April. Although I think Android system updates were (still are for some manufacturers) a lot worse than Pentax not long ago, and security vulnerabilities there lead to a lot more damage than misfocused photos I see it as difference in mentality, look at how other industries such as gaming and smart-stuff, that have learned to take software/firmware risks and ship features out faster, knowing people will just wait for the fix instead of getting a new product. Not everyone's happy with this trend though, I mostly want my cameras dumb and reliable, which is the opposite of my phone, so I'm not too disturbed by not being able to connect the GR to my phone.

QuoteOriginally posted by amstel78 Quote
try shooting a soccer or hockey game one day
I've done that a lot. You can make it work, but you have to work for it with the lens that I had, the 60-250 (beautiful optically though). After getting the "budget" 55-300 plm, it's like my k3ii is an entirely new camera when it comes to af tracking. So maybe there's a silver lining with the new lenses, when they arrive.

Last edited by aaacb; 04-05-2019 at 03:03 PM.
04-05-2019, 03:44 PM - 7 Likes   #6
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Sorry to hear you've discovered that a $4000 camera has features not found in a $2000 camera.

The hardware is not there to do what you want. The K-1 PDAF system cannot do eye tracking because it never forms a high-resolution image of the scene which would be required to recognize an eye in the first place.
04-05-2019, 03:49 PM - 3 Likes   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by amstel78 Quote
The lenses are also built like tanks with great IQ and relatively fast focus motors... but......Pentax AF for anything other than easily trackable objects like a bird flying more than a few hundred meters away is severely lacking.
@amstel78, you have a great K-1 II kit, IMO! Sorry to hear of your disappointment with Pentax autofocus performance.

For those folks who read your thread here, I think that your assessment of "Pentax AF" could be shored up a bit if you could provide a couple of examples from your own experience. It's always informative when some details are given.

Several recent threads have explored this subject:

(Un)popular Opinion: Pentax AF Doesn't Suck - PentaxForums.com

How does Pentax AF-C compare to other brands? - PentaxForums.com

How good is Pentax AF tracking? - PentaxForums.com

Understanding how foolish it is to make sweeping claims about autofocus - PentaxForums.com

As these threads have revealed, unfortunately there are few credible, detailed comparisons of the relative autofocus performance amongst brands and camera models. A common theme seems to be that user proficiency and knowledge of one's gear are key factors. The various Pentax user manuals don't make it easy to determine which settings would be best for specific circumstances; several members have remarked that Nikon and Canon have produced very detailed guides on their autofocus features and settings. Nonetheless, there are quite a few examples of successful AF usage with Pentax gear, including getting sharp action shots of moving subjects in a variety of contexts.

In any case, it's a great time to be considering new gear -- there are plenty of excellent systems, each with particular strong points.

- Craig


Last edited by c.a.m; 04-05-2019 at 04:27 PM. Reason: clarification
04-05-2019, 03:57 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
Several recent threads have explored this subject
Thanks, Craig - you included the thread I couldn't previously recall in your list. There's good reading right there for anyone thinking of jumping from any system to another due to AF alone...
04-05-2019, 03:58 PM   #9
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Please forgive me for not quoting each response separately; I'm not at home now and am responding via Tapatalk on my phone so please forgive any grammatical errors or typos in my reply below.

I agree with what most who've responded thus far have said, especially regarding the price differences between the K1-II and the A9 I referenced. But, even if you take the A9 out of the equation and replaced it with the A7 III, Sony's AF in that body, in my opinion, still excels over Pentax's flagship offering in a similar price bracket.

I'm a landscape/travel/architecture guy for the most part, and only recently started getting into action photography. It pains me to say it but my Olympus OMD EM-10 Mark III which I've recently resorted to using for official business trips because it's small, light, and inexpensive, has a better AF tracking system than the K1 as far as moving subjects go.

The K1 and K1-II without a doubt is THE best static image camera on the market today as far as IQ, durability, and price to performance goes. But the minute you want to shoot something that's moving quickly and erratically goes, then that's where the system fails in my opinion.

If I could be so bold, my dream camera would have the IQ, IBIS, dual card slots, durability, and build quality of the K1-II along with the AF, processor, shutter, and software upgrade timeline of the A9. Perhaps then, one camera could rule them all but realistically speaking, would never happen for reasons out of our control.

[COLOR="Silver"]

Last edited by amstel78; 04-05-2019 at 04:03 PM.
04-05-2019, 04:02 PM - 6 Likes   #10
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How did we manage before we had auto focus? Were all eyes out of focus?
04-05-2019, 04:02 PM - 2 Likes   #11
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04-05-2019, 04:11 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by arnold Quote
How did we manage before we had auto focus? Were all eyes out of focus?
Lol, I knew someone would say something similar.

But then again, back in the day, most portrait shots were done in a static environment, similar to painting. The subject had to remain perfectly still and apertures were smaller.

Let's not dilute the conversion with different genres; I'm taking about action AF where the subject is moving.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done with older technology. But I'm damn sure the photographer would have had less keepers than what could be possible with today's systems.

Edit: and before you say something snide about my "back in the day" remark, I grew up shooting and developing film with a Pentax ME Super. I still shoot 120 roll film (plus develop it myself) on a completely mechanical MF rig on occasion.

Last edited by amstel78; 04-05-2019 at 04:18 PM.
04-05-2019, 04:47 PM - 3 Likes   #13
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@amstel78 What you are experiencing is the conflict between expectations and promises, and it feels like you understand that your expectations and K1-ll’s promises are not in alignment - but you wish they’re were. One thing where you’re I think just plain wrong - Pentax can’t release a magic FW update and massively improve the AF performance, especially adding features that just aren’t there. There’s a thread around here somewhere on which Bruce Banner claims in LiveView the K-1 will track an eye and maintain AF but I can’t find it and don’t recall the parameters. Part of the problem is in many cases features just aren’t well documented. I think K-1 can do things we aren’t aware of if properly set up and I know the KP does.

For the time being I think your experience is commonly felt by many users here who want their camera to offer intuitive tracking AF. At the same time I have a small twig of a feeling that within the next several months the AF stars are going to realign.

Last edited by monochrome; 04-05-2019 at 06:06 PM.
04-05-2019, 05:22 PM   #14
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The importance of having the latest and best AF is tied to the type of subjects you shoot. Me, I shoot stuff that doesn't move that fast so that's not important to me. But I do realize why it is critically important to many other photographers.

What concerns me more is the unavailability of the latest third party lenses. For example, I have an immediate need a modern 135mm f/1.8 lens. In fact, I'm purchasing one tonight in the Canon mount because it's not available in the Pentax mount. To be able to use this lens, I'm also going to be buying a Canon full frame digital camera, etra batteries, etc. etc.. It would have been so much easier for me if Sigma offered this lens in the Pentax K mount so I could use it on my K-1, but no, I've not got to re-learn Canon's after a 5 year hiatus.

Pentax/Ricoh, you need to do something to get the third party lens makers to start offering their lenses in K mount! The lack of third party lenses is a deal breaker for some of us.

I do hope that the upcoming new Pentax bodies are exceedingly popular. If that happens, and Pentax's market share explodes, then I expect the third party lens makers will reconsider their position on offering their lenses in K mount.
.
04-05-2019, 06:03 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote

What concerns me more is the unavailability of the latest third party lenses.
.
Although not a related to the AF theme of my post, this is an excellent point that I'm glad you brought up. The lack of third party offerings for the K mount is certainly disconcerting.

Unfortunately, I believe this 3PK drought will continue unabated for as long as Pentax continues to lose market share. Their isn't a good reason for the likes of Tamron and Tokina to invest in KAF3 lens designs if they can't recoup R&D and manufacturing costs. Sigma, while they still make the odd K glass here and there, I fear, won't be doing so for much longer.

Why do you think modern Pentax glass is so much more expensive than similar offerings from Nikon, Canon, Tamron, Tokina, or Sigma? It's not because Pentax has exclusive designs, advanced technology, or lens coatings. It's because their economies of scale are much smaller due to lower sales volume that they have to price their products higher in order to recoup initial development and production costs.

That's why I think it's important for Ricoh to get with the program and remain competitive with the big 3 as far as features and functionality go.

Admit it. At the end of the day, most people who buy new cameras compare specs and prices. The one with the most value for money that can provide decent enough IQ generally tends to win.

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