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05-11-2019, 12:29 AM - 2 Likes   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
I doubt any of you clicked on the above link. If you had, I expect you might have mentioned this eye opening article in your comments - but no one even mentioned this article. Have any of you ever seen a large print from one of the latest cell phones?

Obviously, most members here already have their minds made up regarding cells phones, and are not open to rethinking their position as cell phone cameras continue to evolve. I too thought the same, until I went on a photo safari with one of the latest models.

I have seen many camera for sale ads here and on Ebay where the elderly photographer was selling their big cameras because age or infirmity made it too large/heavy to carry. I would think all photographers would be excited about the incredible developments we continue to see in smart phone cameras. Everyone is aging all of the time, who knows when you or I might not be able to carry a big camera. It's nice to know when I'm disabled I can still shoot good images with a smart phone that's only a few ounces in weight. If you live long enough, I suspect many of you will eventually embrace smart phone cameras as a way to continue to practice your hobby long after you're no longer able to carry/handle your big camera.
If I gave the impression that I'd made up my mind against cell phones, my apologies, Dave... That's not the case at all. My mind is rarely fully made up about anything, and my views are never set in stone. I'm always open to new ideas, and change my views as my experience grows and technology moves forward. I'm willing to embrace any tool if it helps me to do what I want better and/or more easily, without giving up things that are important to me. I'm not a camera snob... phone, compact, bridge, DSLR, mirrorless, fixed or interchangeable lens, leading edge or vintage, any brand... It's all good to me, if it works how I want and need it to.

That article demonstrates quite well how the latest and greatest phone cameras might be used to good effect in reasonably-well-lit nature landscape photography. This is a use case that's well-suited to the phone's sensor size and wide angle lens combination. And if that use case covers a large part of what a particular photographer wants to do with his or her equipment, fantastic. Personally, though, I wouldn't call that general photography, and when the use case is outside the ideal conditions for the sensor / lens combo, the limitations are considerable.

As for smart-phones being light in weight, absolutely - and this is a big deal. There are other options, too, though... The little Panasonic DMC-FZ62 bridge camera I mentioned in an earlier response weighs just 550g including fitted battery, memory card, strap, lens hood and lens cap. Its lens and sensor combination offers the equivalent of 25 - 600mm on 35mm, it generally feels like a DSLR / mirrorless camera in use, and I can get a busy weekend of shooting from one fully charged battery, with juice to spare. I suffer from the early stages of rheumatoid arthritis, and it's a good day indeed when I can lug my full frame camera and a couple of decent-sized lenses around for more than an hour or so without getting tired. But, even if I'm suffering a "flare up", I can shoot the Panasonic all day if necessary, barely noticing it's hanging from my neck. Of course, under close scrutiny, the image quality doesn't come close to matching that of my full frame and APS-C DSLRs, but at reasonable reproduction sizes and realistic viewing distances, it's fine. Actually, pretty darned good for many purposes. The latest version of that camera, the DMC-FZ82, costs just GBP £275 here in the UK... a fraction of the price of the best photography-optimised phones. Like those phones, it's far from perfect and is better for certain use cases than others - but it's quite versatile and provides a lot of bang for the buck.

My pursuits might be considered the very definition of general photography. I don't specialise in one area (which might explain why I'm not especially skilled in any of them ). I shoot some landscape, flowers, historical and modern architecture, vehicles, birds and animals, portraiture, street, products, abstract, macro etc. A bit of most things, really. I shoot outdoors and indoors, in well-lit and low light situations. I mostly use available light, occasionally one flash, every now and then two. I use field of view, lens to subject distance, depth of field and shutter speed to create the look I'm after for each shot. So, a wide range of use cases and applications that encompass what I would call general photography. For a few of those, I expect I could get nice results with one of the newer phone cameras. And if I was more forgiving of the phone's limitations, I could probably achieve acceptable results in a few more - albeit with less creative control and/or lower image quality than I'd like. But there are still a number of remaining use cases - quite common ones - where the phone is simply a poor choice.

As always, it's a case of picking the right tool for the job at hand. If the job is compatible with the phone's sensor size and wide angle lens combination, it can be an excellent choice of tool


Last edited by BigMackCam; 05-11-2019 at 03:35 AM.
05-11-2019, 01:20 AM - 2 Likes   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
I doubt any of you clicked on the above link. If you had, I expect you might have mentioned this eye opening article in your comments - but no one even mentioned this article. Have any of you ever seen a large print from one of the latest cell phones?
I read the article now. It's just an marketing opinion to encourage people to print their mobile photos. Doesn't prove anything. And I do have 2m wide canvas print from a shot taken at 2003 with 4Mpix Canon P&S on my living room wall. The fact that I like it, and want to continue to keep it there, doesn't make it technically any better.

I also checked some iPhone X photos in Flickr. Despite new bells and whistles due to advancement in software side of mobile phones the shots are still limited in IQ, but I think the advancements are good for those who find that IQ acceptable. Still I think I hang on to opinion that Nokia 808 is the very best camera in mobile phones and, for me, even it is just a substitute when DSLR is too big and cumbersome to carry along.

Furthermore I like the feeling and process of shooting with DSLR and old manual lenses. Preferably prime. Using them is a joy itself. And I've taken action shots with P&S before I could afford DSLR. It's such a pain that I never want to try that again

Nokia 808:









K1ii:







05-11-2019, 02:36 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by robiles Quote
For me it would be product photography. I started a project that that involves a lot of it. With a phone i could never get straight lines, and a nice perspective.

Currently i use a Pentax KP with the 35 macro and pixel shift, and i can say i am really pleased. I use a cheap light box, an the results are really nice, lots of detail, perfect colors and also SHARP

edit: and some proof (soc jpg - small)

Hi Robiles,
where can I buy these drinks with such beautiful vignettes?
z.
05-11-2019, 02:48 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
I've got an iPhone 6, and it's images are a far cry from those now produced by the iPhone 10 XS!

Well, that's correct. I have Xs and so I can confirm your statement. However, as far as I understand, still the principles of physics of light remain valid. Mobile phones can have their tricks (multiple lenses/cameras, image processing, etc.) but never can have the size (lens diameter, focal length) of a real camera lens. Indeed, as you're the Zeiss specialist, I'm even surprised by this question "Why A BIG Camera When The Latest Smart Phones Are So Capable?".

05-11-2019, 03:22 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
.
Last month I visited my brother in Phoenix Arizona USA. We went on many nature hikes. As usual, I brought along a camera, and my brother (who also loves to photograph) brought along his camera.

On this trip I took my new Panasonic micro 4/3rds camera and a couple lenses (20mm, 90mm). My brother shot his smartphone, the latest offering from Samsung.

To my surprise, he got more keeper images than I did, and his best images were better than my best images were!

Unless you've done a side-by-side shoot against the latest smart phone cameras from iPhone/Google/Samsung, you have no idea how far their built in cameras have evolved. I've got an iPhone 6, and it's images are a far cry from those now produced by the iPhone 10 XS!


Check out this article where a professional printer talks about how the latest smartphone cameras are making image files that produce surprisingly good 30-inch by 40-inch prints. Also, the latest smart phones have great HDR and Panoramic capabilities, and have larger 12MP sensors that produce RAW files that can be editied in Lightroom mobile.

The gap is narrowing between smartphone images and big camera images.

Me, I intend to keep shooting my Pentax K-1's because I'm a bokeholic and love the DOF and 3D-pop I get from shooting fast lenses wide open on a full frame sensor.

Have you ever shot one of the latest smartphones? How does it's images compare with images from your big camera? What makes a big camera's images better than images from one of the latest smartphones?

About this question, it is intereting, but you did not go with a BIG camera, you went with m4/3. especially with 20 and 90 mm lenses it is not that far away from most recent phones(with latest tech, multilens, ect.) Now if you had nice zoom like 12-35/2.8 or so, it could have been different because of versality. When I took with me my Oly E5MKII and kit lens14-42(total $$$$,$$ around as much as top end phone). I knew that only thing setting it better than phone(iPhone7) was it's versality, ability to use it like as actual camera and possibility of tripod. Which do give me advantage in nights scapes.

But for most, I'd say that it is not an advantage anymore. For me, Oly has changed to be K-1 with big lenses. Or Limiteds. I will get GR later on when budget allows, and perhaps that new theta. Just because. But using my phone. No. Only when I take ashot of really basic things, and it will not be published anywhere. I would not like post things in Insta or even in Facebook(I'm still using it , because it just does not look as good even at that size. Allways when I do, it make me go little sad that I did.
05-11-2019, 03:35 AM   #51
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The question that I have to ask about smartphone photos is, is the imaging better, or is the electronic post processing better? So then the real question is, did you take a good photo, or did the phone make it good?
05-11-2019, 04:10 AM - 2 Likes   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
I doubt any of you clicked on the above link. If you had, I expect you might have mentioned this eye opening article in your comments - but no one even mentioned this article. Have any of you ever seen a large print from one of the latest cell phones?

Obviously, most members here already have their minds made up regarding cells phones, and are not open to rethinking their position as cell phone cameras continue to evolve. I too thought the same, until I went on a photo safari with one of the latest models.

I have seen many camera for sale ads here and on Ebay where the elderly photographer was selling their big cameras because age or infirmity made it too large/heavy to carry. I would think all photographers would be excited about the incredible developments we continue to see in smart phone cameras. Everyone is aging all of the time, who knows when you or I might not be able to carry a big camera. It's nice to know when I'm disabled I can still shoot good images with a smart phone that's only a few ounces in weight. If you live long enough, I suspect many of you will eventually embrace smart phone cameras as a way to continue to practice your hobby long after you're no longer able to carry/handle your big camera.
Did you read my post about the impossibly awkward ergonomics and interface of a smartphone? It doesn’t matter how good the camera is if I can’t comfortably hold it and control and use it. They suck as voice communication devices and keyboarding / messaging devices, too. They don’t do anything better than what they replaced except inadequately emulate several better dedicated devices in one portable package.

05-11-2019, 04:18 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Did you read my post about the impossibly awkward ergonomics and interface of a smartphone? It doesn’t matter how good the camera is if I can’t comfortably hold it and control and use it. They suck as voice communication devices and keyboarding / messaging devices, too. They don’t do anything better than what they replaced except inadequately emulate several better dedicated devices in one portable package.
So, Paul... will you be choosing the iPhone XS or Huawei Mate 20?
05-11-2019, 04:32 AM - 1 Like   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
So, Paul... will you be choosing the iPhone XS or Huawei Mate 20?
Do they make flip phones?
05-11-2019, 04:42 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Do they make flip phones?
I'm not sure. But they're all wireless
05-11-2019, 04:49 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Hi Robiles,
where can I buy these drinks with such beautiful vignettes?
z.
These are from a local brewery (Frankfurt, Germany), and they are made in really low numbers, nost probably not found in stores outside this region (i have seen them in only one liquor store outside their once a month open brewery).

If ever in the are, i would gladly take you on a photo/beer tasting tour.
05-11-2019, 05:18 AM   #57
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For me, the question of "why use a BIG camera when your phone can shoot many of the same shots?" is similar to the question of "why ride a bike without training wheels when you can do similar riding on a bike with training wheels?"
05-11-2019, 05:18 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by robiles Quote
These are from a local brewery (Frankfurt, Germany), and they are made in really low numbers, nost probably not found in stores outside this region (i have seen them in only one liquor store outside their once a month open brewery).

If ever in the are, i would gladly take you on a photo/beer tasting tour.

Reciprocal invitation. We also have some small breweries around here .
05-11-2019, 05:59 AM   #59
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My bestie is a cell phone photographer. She is a social justice advocate and has 10K followers across her social media platforms. For her an iPhone is ideal to document or promote events and immediately post on instagram. She also LIVEcasts events on Facebook using the same gear. She is a local media personality and social influencer. Her involvement with homelessness and animal rights and rescues has given a purpose to much of my photography hobby. (I’ve done the photography for 3 magazine articles she’s had published)

I know that 99% of the photos I take for her are going to be viewed on someone’s cellphone screen regardless my investment in equipment.

But that said, what amuses me is, if we are taking her dogs on a walk after dark she’ll comment, “Isn’t the moon exquisite?” whip out her phone and while on the move take a one handed shot and be surprised the image doesn’t match what she was seeing in her mind’s eye.

Whereas I, with a little bit of preparation and work in post, can get this and it’s not even a great moon photo.

EDIT: I carry an iPhone 5SE. It is provided by my employer and on his plan. I can upgrade to whatever I want as long as I pay for it myself. My friend uses an iPhone 8.
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Last edited by Perfessor5646; 05-11-2019 at 06:33 AM.
05-11-2019, 06:22 AM   #60
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You are being a bit disingenuous. Any camera can take very nice shots within its sweet spot. The latest phone cameras have expanded that range. I don't carry my k1 because it is heavy, i carry it because i can take shots with it that the phone can't.

But I'm a bit strange among people who like taking photographs. Many people limit their photography to what their phone will do well. They don't carry a camera and they get the show they want.

I read recently about someone who grew a love of photography using their phone, and wanted to expand by purchasing a body and lens. They found it disappointing. Unless you purchase a specific lens with superb qualities matched to a camera body with a superb sensor, within the focal lengths that phone cameras have you might find that there is little difference. And even with very nice gear, unless you start shooting differently to take advantage of the camera capabilities, start processing your raws, the phone cameras are very good.

Plus they are small and light and probably in your pocket.

This is a real problem for the camera manufacturers.

I embrace the power of and. I have and use both.
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