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05-27-2019, 01:02 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Canon's issues with sensors is not at high iso, but low iso. Typically they have about one stop less dynamic range at base iso than comparitive Sony sensors. They are actually quite good at high iso. The KP and K70 do really do a lot better with high iso dynamic range due to the accelerator chip, but whether or not that is desirable is probably a discussion for another thread...
Interesting... thanks for the link. Using the chart, I see that the original Rebel SL1 (EOS 100D) does indeed show considerably lower dynamic range at lower ISOs. The SL2 (EOS 200D) is almost identical to the K-3 and K-70 at lower settings, which suggests - for this sensor, at least - Canon has upped its game somewhat. There's no data for the SL3 (EOS 250D) yet...

05-27-2019, 02:22 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Interesting... thanks for the link. Using the chart, I see that the original Rebel SL1 (EOS 100D) does indeed show considerably lower dynamic range at lower ISOs. The SL2 (EOS 200D) is almost identical to the K-3 and K-70 at lower settings, which suggests - for this sensor, at least - Canon has upped its game somewhat. There's no data for the SL3 (EOS 250D) yet...
The SL3 has the same sensor that is in the M50 so you can substitute that if you are interested.
05-27-2019, 02:28 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The SL3 has the same sensor that is in the M50 so you can substitute that if you are interested.
Thanks

So, the M50 / SL3 sensor seems to be capable of almost - but not quite - the same dynamic range as the K-70 at lower ISOs... less than half a stop difference. If I was considering an SL3 - which I'm not - I don't think I'd be concerned. Heck, I'm more than happy with the dynamic range of my GX10 / K10D for most day-to-day shooting, and that's two stops less than the K-70...
05-27-2019, 04:13 AM   #19
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Fed up with lugging around two pounds of lens and camera when I wasn't out just to take photos, I bought a used Sony A6000 with the 16-50 f/3.5 to f/5.6 lens. With the fixed metal lens hood I use it's slightly smaller and lighter than a compact 35mm SLR and 50mm lens; in my case I compared it with my Minolta X700. It produces good quality results and is a lot less trouble to carry around than my K3 or K20D and 16-50mm f/2.8. It helps that the zoom range is just the same, though the lens is slower. But Pentax or Sony, I shoot at around f/6.7 most of the time anyway.

For taking photos of unexpected subjects at high quality it's great. The lens is good. It has an electronic viewfinder, which is, er, okay. The controls work differently; it would be nice if it was a Pentax. Batteries last no time at all, so I treat it as I would a film camera; I check every time. Even new, this camera and lens is only £500.

I also use a Canon G9 compact. It fits in a belt pouch and I hardly have think about it being there. Of course, it doesn't match the technical quality of my Sony or Pentax, but it's good enough for most things.

05-27-2019, 11:47 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Thanks

So, the M50 / SL3 sensor seems to be capable of almost - but not quite - the same dynamic range as the K-70 at lower ISOs... less than half a stop difference. If I was considering an SL3 - which I'm not - I don't think I'd be concerned. Heck, I'm more than happy with the dynamic range of my GX10 / K10D for most day-to-day shooting, and that's two stops less than the K-70...
Human eye cant notice half a stop of dr difference.
Seems Sony and Canon sensors are pretty much playing in the same ball park for some time now.
05-27-2019, 12:03 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Human eye cant notice half a stop of dr difference.
Seems Sony and Canon sensors are pretty much playing in the same ball park for some time now.
Well, even half a stop more in dynamic range can make the difference between blown highlights and/or flattened shadows that aren't recoverable in post-processing, versus those that are. But unless we're talking very high dynamic range scenes, this small difference really isn't worth worrying about. As I said previously, my GX-10 serves me very well, and dynamic range at base ISO is a full two stops below the K-3, K-70 etc. When necessary, I just take two or three shots at different exposures and merge them (obviously that only works for static scenes)...
05-27-2019, 01:57 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Well, even half a stop more in dynamic range can make the difference between blown highlights and/or flattened shadows that aren't recoverable in post-processing, versus those that are.
Hmmm... comparing Canon SL3 to Nikon D3400 @ISO6400 on DPR studio scene comparison tool ... the noise performance advantage of Sony sensor is hardly visible even at pixel level. I'm pretty sure that 0,5 is indistinguishable at normal magnification even before we factor in noise reduction algorithms. Have any examples where 0,5DR could make a difference?

05-27-2019, 02:11 PM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Hmmm... comparing Canon SL3 to Nikon D3400 @ISO6400 on DPR studio scene comparison tool ... the noise performance advantage of Sony sensor is hardly visible even at pixel level. I'm pretty sure that 0,5 is indistinguishable at normal magnification even before we factor in noise reduction algorithms. Have any examples where 0,5DR could make a difference?
I don't. All I'm saying is, once a pixel is blown out due to over-exposure or crushed due to under-exposure, it's gone - we can't recover the detail in it. Using a camera with half a stop extra dynamic range at ISO 100 (or any ISO setting, for that matter) gives you just a little more latitude in any given scene, at any given exposure, to recover what would otherwise be lost detail at one end of the histogram or the other (or both). In practice, for most of us, half a stop of additional latitude at base ISO isn't really significant... though serious landscape photographers would crawl over broken glass for it, in my experience. They'll take any advantage they can get

Last edited by BigMackCam; 05-27-2019 at 02:42 PM.
05-27-2019, 06:08 PM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Hmmm... comparing Canon SL3 to Nikon D3400 @ISO6400 on DPR studio scene comparison tool ... the noise performance advantage of Sony sensor is hardly visible even at pixel level. I'm pretty sure that 0,5 is indistinguishable at normal magnification even before we factor in noise reduction algorithms. Have any examples where 0,5DR could make a difference?
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I don't. All I'm saying is, once a pixel is blown out due to over-exposure or crushed due to under-exposure, it's gone - we can't recover the detail in it.
Not sure comparing a brand new Canon SL3 to a three year old Nikon D3400 is the best for comparison. Apples to apples would be the Canon T6 (same year release) with the Nikon D3400 or the Canon SL3 with the Nikon D3500 (less than a year old) or the Nikon D7500 (same price range).

The first assignment in my digital courses is to have students at 100 ISO bracket RAW the same scene normal, +2EV, -2EV. Often students will make the mistake of only over exposing it two half EV or two third EVs. But even with the +2/3rd EV, normal, and -2/3rd EV, you can see without the metadata which students are shooting Canon vs. a Nikon or Pentax with the Sony sensors.

Canons are more contrasty with highlights (typically in clouds) being unrecoverable.

I like to explore the DPR studio scene tool, but the game changes when you're outside in daylight with direct sun.
05-27-2019, 11:18 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Not sure comparing a brand new Canon SL3 to a three year old Nikon D3400 is the best for comparison. Apples to apples would be the Canon T6 (same year release) with the Nikon D3400 or the Canon SL3 with the Nikon D3500 (less than a year old) or the Nikon D7500 (same price range).
I would have, but they didnt add D3500 to the comparison tool and D7500 behaves differently at pixel level because of 20mp vs 24mp sensor....
QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
The first assignment in my digital courses is to have students at 100 ISO bracket RAW the same scene normal, +2EV, -2EV. Often students will make the mistake of only over exposing it two half EV or two third EVs. But even with the +2/3rd EV, normal, and -2/3rd EV, you can see without the metadata which students are shooting Canon vs. a Nikon or Pentax with the Sony sensors.Canons are more contrasty with highlights (typically in clouds) being unrecoverable.I like to explore the DPR studio scene tool, but the game changes when you're outside in daylight with direct sun.

Hmm sounds more of a metering issue than sensor issue or are you comparing JPGs?

---------- Post added 05-28-19 at 08:25 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
All I'm saying is, once a pixel is blown out due to over-exposure or crushed due to under-exposure, it's gone - we can't recover the detail in it.
From my experience only over exposure causes difference cause human eyes are more sensitive to bright light and it isnt so hard to just under exposure half a stop if photos are being clipped.
As for the shadow recovery, dunno... never tried to push those blacks so high that half a DR would make a visible difference, besides, i like my blacks black and i mostly shoot landscapes
Oh - remembered a scenario where a sensor with higher DR is highly desirable - astrophotography. I can never get them astro photos perfectly clean at ISO6400 with my KS1

Last edited by Trickortreat; 05-27-2019 at 11:26 PM.
05-28-2019, 12:56 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Hmm sounds more of a metering issue than sensor issue or are you comparing JPGs?[COLOR=Silver]
Comparing RAW files, not jpegs, and it is not a metering issue. Yes, Nikon meters tend to under expose to help preserve those highlights, but it is clearly the dynamic range of the Sony sensors that are better at handling high contrast in those highlights.

In my advanced photo course, I give an HDR assignment. Here again, the Canon shooters must bracket more under exposures to capture detail in the highlights than the Pentax and Nikon shooters. And it's more than 1/2EV. IF I owned a Canon, I could just post this, but when I do our open critiques in class, it is quite apparent for everyone.
05-28-2019, 01:07 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Comparing RAW files, not jpegs, and it is not a metering issue. Yes, Nikon meters tend to under expose to help preserve those highlights, but it is clearly the dynamic range of the Sony sensors that are better at handling high contrast in those highlights.
So RAW response curves of Canon sensors arent linear?
05-28-2019, 02:22 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Hmmm... comparing Canon SL3 to Nikon D3400 @ISO6400 on DPR studio scene comparison tool ... the noise performance advantage of Sony sensor is hardly visible even at pixel level. I'm pretty sure that 0,5 is indistinguishable at normal magnification even before we factor in noise reduction algorithms. Have any examples where 0,5DR could make a difference?
I think the whole question is what happens if you post process a RAW file for a given camera at a particular iso. How much can you push the shadows and pull back the highlights? Canon cameras over time have had somewhat less latitude in this respect. But you won't see this in a low dynamic range scene of the DPR studio scene.
05-28-2019, 03:18 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the whole question is what happens if you post process a RAW file for a given camera at a particular iso. How much can you push the shadows and pull back the highlights? Canon cameras over time have had somewhat less latitude in this respect. But you won't see this in a low dynamic range scene of the DPR studio scene.
True. But even in landscape photos i take with my ks1 that hast got the dr latitude of 24mp sensors i find the dr more than enough. I try not to clip whites. And if something gets black - its black. I dont find dark regions visually unappealing as i do cliped highlights.
But for astro I could use every last bit of dr i can get...
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