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05-27-2019, 02:27 PM   #1
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Sensor development

Hi! It's been some time since i last posted here Anyway

I've been following the Huawei drama and all that, and i thought about something.
The main sensor of the Huawei P30 Pro is a 40MP RYYB sensor, which effectively lets the camera pick about 40% more light by replacing the green photocaptors with yellow ones.
This, along with some fancy features as Quad Bayer and blah blah blah, wouldn't be ideal on bigger sensors like APS-C?

I mean, the P30 Pro has an unknown (for me) sensor size made by Sony, and it has to be at least 5 or 6 times smaller than an APS-C one, let alone a FF sensor. Putting tons of megapixels there or at least make them good enough to behave as the P30 Pro does should do the trick on difficult scenarios like low light. I feel like "giant" yellow pixels would be a cool thing to have, and coming from Sony, they actually know how to make them.

What do you think?

05-27-2019, 04:04 PM   #2
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Sound's a bit like the approach on some color CRTs toward the end of their use. Although that would allow some additional light to some sensor sites, I would guess it may have color gamut problems unless the filters were designed very carefully. Green can be derived from red and yellow information theoretically, but noise is introduced in doing so, so yellow sensors might be hype. Just my thoughts.

The proof is in the pudding and some real case use reports would be worth looking at for this camera.
05-27-2019, 04:26 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
Sound's a bit like the approach on some color CRTs toward the end of their use. Although that would allow some additional light to some sensor sites, I would guess it may have color gamut problems unless the filters were designed very carefully. Green can be derived from red and yellow information theoretically, but noise is introduced in doing so, so yellow sensors might be hype. Just my thoughts.

The proof is in the pudding and some real case use reports would be worth looking at for this camera.
Technically the filter part should be sorted out as it already exists, but it's true that the P30 Pro shipped with a problem on the camera app where the pics would get a yellow-ish cast, which was corrected on software.
05-27-2019, 07:05 PM   #4
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apart from smartphone sensor mentioning

i wonder how long Ricoh Pentax will be in touch of Sony Stacked Sensor, or the BSI one

05-28-2019, 12:32 AM   #5
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Personally I'd prefer the bigger sensor.
05-28-2019, 12:57 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by HYS Quote
Personally I'd prefer the bigger sensor.
Of course, i'm not saying i want a phone sensor on my next DSLR, but rather see that tech into an APS-C/FF sensor
05-28-2019, 01:10 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by CapitanXeon Quote
Of course, i'm not saying i want a phone sensor on my next DSLR, but rather see that tech into an APS-C/FF sensor
I think that any good technical solutions are primarily purpose/object oriented. In our case lets say - the result to be more pleasant to our eyes.
05-28-2019, 07:05 PM   #8
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Old Canon sensors had CYMK filters.

Old Sony sensors had emerald filters.

Bayer filters have survived the evolution of digital photography because it provides the best color reproduction. Where trade off’s occur is the precision of the filter and the “strength” of the filter.

You can accept worse color (and then digitally adjust) in exchange for better light. As the filter decreases in intensity it eventually becomes clear and monochromatic.

Image sensors build on the brilliance of Bayer | Vision Systems Design

I think there is room for the processing
http://www.stark-labs.com/craig/resources/Articles-&-Reviews/Debayering_API.pdf

And

The Perfect Color Filter Array | Strolls with my Dog


——-
Where smartphones are interesting is the idea of synthetic aperture vision, like the Light L16 or current multi-lens smartphones along with stacking of images (like handheld pixel multi shot).

05-30-2019, 03:17 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by GXAlan Quote
Old Canon sensors had CYMK filters.

Old Sony sensors had emerald filters.

Bayer filters have survived the evolution of digital photography because it provides the best color reproduction. Where trade off’s occur is the precision of the filter and the “strength” of the filter.

You can accept worse color (and then digitally adjust) in exchange for better light. As the filter decreases in intensity it eventually becomes clear and monochromatic.
So that explains why some phones shipped before with a B/W camera and a standard camera on a dual setup...by definition all sensors are kind of monochromatic? Like, without the filter
05-30-2019, 07:26 AM - 1 Like   #10
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RYYB would reduce luminance noise at high ISO which is very useful for sensors with extremely tiny pixels that have very low tolerance for ISO gain. But it comes at a cost because the R and B pixels must be under-exposed by 1 stop to avoid clipping in the Y channel. That reduces the color depth. Plus the need to estimate the G channel image by subtracting R from Y means resolution in G suffers.

Overall RYYB does help ensure the sensor can get some sort of acceptable image in lower light levels (needed on phone sensors) but with the downside of reducing IQ at all other light levels.
05-30-2019, 10:44 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by CapitanXeon Quote
Hi! It's been some time since i last posted here Anyway

I've been following the Huawei drama and all that, and i thought about something.
The main sensor of the Huawei P30 Pro is a 40MP RYYB sensor, which effectively lets the camera pick about 40% more light by replacing the green photocaptors with yellow ones.
This, along with some fancy features as Quad Bayer and blah blah blah, wouldn't be ideal on bigger sensors like APS-C?

I mean, the P30 Pro has an unknown (for me) sensor size made by Sony, and it has to be at least 5 or 6 times smaller than an APS-C one, let alone a FF sensor. Putting tons of megapixels there or at least make them good enough to behave as the P30 Pro does should do the trick on difficult scenarios like low light. I feel like "giant" yellow pixels would be a cool thing to have, and coming from Sony, they actually know how to make them.

What do you think?
A smart phone provides prodigious computing power. Pentax would have to be persuaded providing power for that purpose would be good; personally, I think the 'accelerator' in my KP was a great idea.
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