What is the actual benefit of mirrorless?

Dan Rentea · 11-06-2019, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

It is a difference in markets. Japan has fully embraced mirrorless cameras. The United States still is pretty firmly in SLR territory. Other markets are somewhere in between. So when I go out in the US to a park or a zoo I see predominantly SLRs -- the exception being if there are a lot of asian tourists at that location.

Weren't Sony the ones announcing that they managed to surpass Nikon sales in US a few months ago and becoming no.2 in sales, after Canon?

**Serkevan** · 11-06-2019, 06:19 AM

Sales for the period or in total? Sony might be selling more than Nikon now, but that doesn't make the bought-some-years-ago gear disappear. It might be at the verge of shift, though.

**Rondec** · 11-06-2019, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

Weren't Sony the ones announcing that they managed to surpass Nikon sales in US a few months ago and becoming no.2 in sales, after Canon?

I don't think so. There are two stories that I recall. One was Sony pushing Nikon off the number two spot in the US in "full frame sales." And Sony gaining the number two spot in "worldwide sales."

But both of these are very different from cameras in use and there, Canon and Nikon still predominate here, in terms of ILCs and most of the cameras I see are a couple of generations old -- T6i or D5300 or cameras like that. Certainly they are still in use, but the folks using them aren't replacing them -- not with MILCs or newer SLRs.

Dan Rentea · 11-06-2019, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I don't think so. There are two stories that I recall. One was Sony pushing Nikon off the number two spot in the US in "full frame sales." And Sony gaining the number two spot in "worldwide sales."

But both of these are very different from cameras in use and there, Canon and Nikon still predominate here, in terms of ILCs and most of the cameras I see are a couple of generations old -- T6i or D5300 or cameras like that. Certainly they are still in use, but the folks using them aren't replacing them -- not with MILCs or newer SLRs.

It's hard to replace all the gear sold by manufacturers before mirrorless gaining popularity. I mentioned Sony because if the story about them being on no. 2 position in US which may indicate a change in the buyers preferences.

**Rondec** · 11-06-2019, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

It's hard to replace all the gear sold by manufacturers before mirrorless gaining popularity. I mentioned Sony because if the story about them being on no. 2 position in US which may indicate a change in the buyers preferences.

Probably it indicates a lack of replacement SLR style gear being released by Nikon. Certainly Z mount sales have not caught fire around here. But if Nikonians are waiting for the next reasonably priced F mount gear to be released, like, say, a D750 replacement, seems like they will have to wait awhile.

mconwxdr · 11-06-2019, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Pentikonian

I think there are more DSLR + MILC users out there than a lot of people believe.

I was one of them. Used a K-5 w/16-50 and a fuji X-E3 with the 27mm pancake (and 12mm Samyang) for about a year. Decided to sell the fuji gear (for now anyway) and get a K-70. I mostly wanted it for a light "pocketable" camera, but the problem is even with the small size of the X-E3 with the 27mm lens it still would only fit in a jacket pocket and was still heavy enough to be annoying when doing so (maybe I'll try a GRII used instead). And the build quality left me worrying a lot about handling it. I felt like if I dropped it even once it was shatter all over. I guess I've been spoiled by the tank that is the K-5. So I didn't use it as much as I thought and just generally enjoyed using the K-5 w/16-50 more, even with the obvious size/weight difference.

Two things I'll miss though, 1) the EVF w/live exposure and peaking. With nearly-zero lag in the X-E3 (and I presume in most newer mirrorless cameras) this is by far the #1 benefit of mirrorless. Don't knock it til you try it. I just didn't screw up exposure and focus as much as I did on the K-5 (although the latter could be from the old AF system in the K-5 I guess). 2) The great size/IQ/value of the Samyang 12mm. It had a DA15 pixie-dust quality to it. I wish Pentax had better < 15mm options available.

kadajawi · 11-07-2019, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Serkevan

I haven't had the chance to try any of the Panasonics, but I assumed that at least their M43 cameras (the FF seems to have a very high quality EVF) had the same finders as the Olys... which are also bad

. Glad to hear they are not.

---------- Post added 11-06-19 at 05:45 AM ----------

Japanese tourists seem to carry an A7 each, it's fascinating. You see 25 people walking and suddenly they all stop, grab their Sonys and start clicking in unison.

I haven't had the FF Panasonics, so I can't comment on them. The MFT ones... my GX80 CAN have issues, but it doesn't feel as distracting as the A7 III. And the question is how it is in real life... and there, the GX80 doesn't annoy me. It could be better, sure, but it is ok. Maybe that is also because I mostly use this camera when conditions are good enough. If it really gets dark, I'll try to bring the Pentax.

The G9 was much better though. Perhaps the Panasonic video prowess also helps with the EVF? Panasonic knows a thing or two about EVFs from their video cameras too. Maybe you can find the G9 somewhere and try it out. It may not be 100 percent perfect, but it is good enough to get the shots I want and to not annoy or distract me. And the benefits easily outweight the slight imperfections (which doesn't seem to be the case for me on the Sonys, as far as I can judge. But I'd need to test it in real life). Also, MFT seems to get lenses right. There are really small and light options for MFT, like the 12-32 pancake.

@mconwxdr: Maybe there's dust/dirt covering the AF sensors? Cleaning that area has helped my K-5, though I'll have to do it again. It never had the best AF system, but I'm under the impression that right now it is particularly bad.

**Gorgarath** · 11-11-2019, 09:04 AM - **1 Like**

I only saw one comment in the thread that seems to have been missed/ignored, and I know with LV you can do this as well, but IR/UV photography seems very well suited to mirrorless cameras. As this is an area I'm rather interested in getting into, I'm always looking for more information on this.

edri · 12-20-2019, 02:19 AM

For me the real benefits would be: "focus peaking" in the viewfinder, AF more precisely without the lens calibration, narrower mounts that allow any older lens to be adapted. I did not take into account the smaller volume and weight, because these advantages begin to disappear slowly, as the performance increases.

Wasp · 12-20-2019, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by edri

For me the real benefits would be: "focus peaking" in the viewfinder, AF more precisely without the lens calibration, narrower mounts that allow any older lens to be adapted.

That sums it up in a nutshell.

In practise it means that wearers of prescription glasses (such as myself) to can do accurate manual focusing while holding the camera up to the eye. Live view goes a long way, but old habits die hard. Especially when one has been holding a camera in a certain way since the mid eighties...

As for exactly what Sony is number two in: I think that the number of mirrorless bodies they are shipping is the real point. The sales volumes say that mirrorless is more than a passing fad.

dcpropilot · 12-20-2019, 04:40 PM

The real question for me is whether the final product remains the same. It's not like all of a sudden DSLRs are taking bad photos.

kadajawi · 12-20-2019, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by dcpropilot

The real question for me is whether the final product remains the same. It's not like all of a sudden DSLRs are taking bad photos.

They aren't. No "larger" camera takes bad photos.

Mirrorless CAN help in getting the shot that you want (or they can be in the way).

PentaMiCL · 12-20-2019, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Wasp

The sales volumes say that mirrorless is more than a passing fad.

Older cameras didn't have a mirror either. It was a smart way to let the photographer see what the film was seeing.

One could argue that the mirror was a fad (due to technical limitations).

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11-06-2019, 06:07 AM	#196
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by Rondec It is a difference in markets. Japan has fully embraced mirrorless cameras. The United States still is pretty firmly in SLR territory. Other markets are somewhere in between. So when I go out in the US to a park or a zoo I see predominantly SLRs -- the exception being if there are a lot of asian tourists at that location. Weren't Sony the ones announcing that they managed to surpass Nikon sales in US a few months ago and becoming no.2 in sales, after Canon?

11-06-2019, 06:19 AM	#197
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Sales for the period or in total? Sony might be selling more than Nikon now, but that doesn't make the bought-some-years-ago gear disappear. It might be at the verge of shift, though.

11-06-2019, 07:59 AM	#198
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by Dan Rentea Weren't Sony the ones announcing that they managed to surpass Nikon sales in US a few months ago and becoming no.2 in sales, after Canon? I don't think so. There are two stories that I recall. One was Sony pushing Nikon off the number two spot in the US in "full frame sales." And Sony gaining the number two spot in "worldwide sales." But both of these are very different from cameras in use and there, Canon and Nikon still predominate here, in terms of ILCs and most of the cameras I see are a couple of generations old -- T6i or D5300 or cameras like that. Certainly they are still in use, but the folks using them aren't replacing them -- not with MILCs or newer SLRs.

11-06-2019, 08:05 AM	#199
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by Rondec I don't think so. There are two stories that I recall. One was Sony pushing Nikon off the number two spot in the US in "full frame sales." And Sony gaining the number two spot in "worldwide sales." But both of these are very different from cameras in use and there, Canon and Nikon still predominate here, in terms of ILCs and most of the cameras I see are a couple of generations old -- T6i or D5300 or cameras like that. Certainly they are still in use, but the folks using them aren't replacing them -- not with MILCs or newer SLRs. It's hard to replace all the gear sold by manufacturers before mirrorless gaining popularity. I mentioned Sony because if the story about them being on no. 2 position in US which may indicate a change in the buyers preferences.

11-06-2019, 08:24 AM	#200
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by Dan Rentea It's hard to replace all the gear sold by manufacturers before mirrorless gaining popularity. I mentioned Sony because if the story about them being on no. 2 position in US which may indicate a change in the buyers preferences. Probably it indicates a lack of replacement SLR style gear being released by Nikon. Certainly Z mount sales have not caught fire around here. But if Nikonians are waiting for the next reasonably priced F mount gear to be released, like, say, a D750 replacement, seems like they will have to wait awhile.

11-06-2019, 11:51 AM	#201
mconwxdr Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Oklahoma Photos: Gallery Posts: 344	Originally posted by Pentikonian I think there are more DSLR + MILC users out there than a lot of people believe. I was one of them. Used a K-5 w/16-50 and a fuji X-E3 with the 27mm pancake (and 12mm Samyang) for about a year. Decided to sell the fuji gear (for now anyway) and get a K-70. I mostly wanted it for a light "pocketable" camera, but the problem is even with the small size of the X-E3 with the 27mm lens it still would only fit in a jacket pocket and was still heavy enough to be annoying when doing so (maybe I'll try a GRII used instead). And the build quality left me worrying a lot about handling it. I felt like if I dropped it even once it was shatter all over. I guess I've been spoiled by the tank that is the K-5. So I didn't use it as much as I thought and just generally enjoyed using the K-5 w/16-50 more, even with the obvious size/weight difference. Two things I'll miss though, 1) the EVF w/live exposure and peaking. With nearly-zero lag in the X-E3 (and I presume in most newer mirrorless cameras) this is by far the #1 benefit of mirrorless. Don't knock it til you try it. I just didn't screw up exposure and focus as much as I did on the K-5 (although the latter could be from the old AF system in the K-5 I guess). 2) The great size/IQ/value of the Samyang 12mm. It had a DA15 pixie-dust quality to it. I wish Pentax had better < 15mm options available.

11-07-2019, 12:48 PM	#202
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by Serkevan I haven't had the chance to try any of the Panasonics, but I assumed that at least their M43 cameras (the FF seems to have a very high quality EVF) had the same finders as the Olys... which are also bad . Glad to hear they are not. ---------- Post added 11-06-19 at 05:45 AM ---------- Japanese tourists seem to carry an A7 each, it's fascinating. You see 25 people walking and suddenly they all stop, grab their Sonys and start clicking in unison. I haven't had the FF Panasonics, so I can't comment on them. The MFT ones... my GX80 CAN have issues, but it doesn't feel as distracting as the A7 III. And the question is how it is in real life... and there, the GX80 doesn't annoy me. It could be better, sure, but it is ok. Maybe that is also because I mostly use this camera when conditions are good enough. If it really gets dark, I'll try to bring the Pentax. The G9 was much better though. Perhaps the Panasonic video prowess also helps with the EVF? Panasonic knows a thing or two about EVFs from their video cameras too. Maybe you can find the G9 somewhere and try it out. It may not be 100 percent perfect, but it is good enough to get the shots I want and to not annoy or distract me. And the benefits easily outweight the slight imperfections (which doesn't seem to be the case for me on the Sonys, as far as I can judge. But I'd need to test it in real life). Also, MFT seems to get lenses right. There are really small and light options for MFT, like the 12-32 pancake. @mconwxdr: Maybe there's dust/dirt covering the AF sensors? Cleaning that area has helped my K-5, though I'll have to do it again. It never had the best AF system, but I'm under the impression that right now it is particularly bad.

11-11-2019, 09:04 AM - 1 Like	#203
Gorgarath Total n00b Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 735	I only saw one comment in the thread that seems to have been missed/ignored, and I know with LV you can do this as well, but IR/UV photography seems very well suited to mirrorless cameras. As this is an area I'm rather interested in getting into, I'm always looking for more information on this.

12-20-2019, 02:19 AM	#204
edri Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: walking in the air Posts: 1,315	For me the real benefits would be: "focus peaking" in the viewfinder, AF more precisely without the lens calibration, narrower mounts that allow any older lens to be adapted. I did not take into account the smaller volume and weight, because these advantages begin to disappear slowly, as the performance increases.

12-20-2019, 03:28 PM	#205
Wasp Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Pretoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,661	Originally posted by edri For me the real benefits would be: "focus peaking" in the viewfinder, AF more precisely without the lens calibration, narrower mounts that allow any older lens to be adapted. That sums it up in a nutshell. In practise it means that wearers of prescription glasses (such as myself) to can do accurate manual focusing while holding the camera up to the eye. Live view goes a long way, but old habits die hard. Especially when one has been holding a camera in a certain way since the mid eighties... As for exactly what Sony is number two in: I think that the number of mirrorless bodies they are shipping is the real point. The sales volumes say that mirrorless is more than a passing fad.

12-20-2019, 04:40 PM	#206
dcpropilot Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Vermont Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 941	The real question for me is whether the final product remains the same. It's not like all of a sudden DSLRs are taking bad photos.

12-20-2019, 05:19 PM	#207
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by dcpropilot The real question for me is whether the final product remains the same. It's not like all of a sudden DSLRs are taking bad photos. They aren't. No "larger" camera takes bad photos. Mirrorless CAN help in getting the shot that you want (or they can be in the way).

12-20-2019, 10:56 PM	#208
PentaMiCL Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 37	Originally posted by Wasp The sales volumes say that mirrorless is more than a passing fad. Older cameras didn't have a mirror either. It was a smart way to let the photographer see what the film was seeing. One could argue that the mirror was a fad (due to technical limitations).