What is the actual benefit of mirrorless?

**Bob 256** · 09-13-2019, 09:36 AM

It's a great type of camera to consider for full-spectrum conversion since an optical viewfinder is useless for infrared and UV use because normally used lens filters block most all visible light.

Dan Rentea · 09-13-2019, 09:42 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by normhead

Dan, I know this is hard for you to comprehend, but shallow DoF is not the only way to create subject isolation, for many of us it looks fake.It's been that way for 70 years, the argument between the "Use Shallow DoF" and the "Learn some composition skills" camps. You speak to one camp.

I'm not going to criticize your image, more than to say it didn't inspire me to rush out and by your camera. Not because I can't, but because it would be pointless. Odd how you take it on yourself to be critical of images, because they aren't to your taste. That's just reprehensible . We are all capable of getting what we want. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing a portrait at ƒ9. Get used to it.

My point is, if you like eye AF go for it. But any given person may decide not to do that and be quite happy. If that's all MILCs have to offer, it's irrelevant to me and many others, most fo the forum actually. Do you like this or that. If they like yours, maybe Eye AF will help, if you like mine, you don't need it.

Just a bit of info to help folks understand the context.

I think you got this wrong. No one is criticising your image. I only spoke about DOF and af regarding your image. And my image wasn't posted to inspire anyone; it is part of a test shot to see how af works at wide aperture on mirrorless and on DSLR cameras. I make this kind of extensive tests when I go out to see the limitations of my gear and work with them. And yes, I do af tests at apertures between f1.2 and f3.2 and in different lighting situation to see how it performs because I don't shoot at f5.6 or f8 more than a few times when I shoot corporait portraits in studio. I shoot mostly between f1.4 and f4. At f9 (not to mention on a crop camera) you don't need af at all on a person running because as I said, there is a lot of DOF there to keep even an elephant in focus.

I don't want to start a debate here because there will always be different opinions on pretty much every subject. I just said from the perspective of a guy who shoots with DSLR and mirrorless why I tend to grab the mirrorless camera instead of my DSLR. You can shoot anything with everything, but I find (I speak from my own perspective) easier to shoot portraits with mirrorless and wildlife with DSLR. For pretty much anything else I like mirrorless because it's a more fun shooting experience for me.

normhead · 09-13-2019, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

I think you got this wrong. No one is criticising your image. I only spoke about DOF and af regarding your image. And my image wasn't posted to inspire anyone; it is part of a test shot to see how af works at wide aperture on mirrorless and on DSLR cameras. I make this kind of extensive tests when I go out to see the limitations of my gear and work with them. And yes, I do af tests at apertures between f1.2 and f3.2 and in different lighting situation to see how it performs because I don't shoot at f5.6 or f8 more than a few times when I shoot corporait portraits in studio. I shoot mostly between f1.4 and f4. At f9 (not to mention on a crop camera) you don't need af at all on a person running because as I said, there is a lot of DOF there to keep even an elephant in focus.

I don't want to start a debate here because there will always be different opinions on pretty much every subject. I just said from the perspective of a guy who shoots with DSLR and mirrorless why I tend to grab the mirrorless camera instead of my DSLR. You can shoot anything with everything, but I find (I speak from my own perspective) easier to shoot portraits with mirrorless and wildlife with DSLR. For pretty much anything else I like mirrorless because it's a more fun shooting experience for me.

Ah, there we have it. If your photography is largely ƒ1.2 to ƒ4 corporate studio shots, Dan's advice may be worth something to you. Happy to help clarify that. I used to do studio shots with a view camera, so my take is the need for eye AF will depend on your skill level.

But the next question is if you're doing a portrait at ƒ1.2, I know you want the eye in focus, but is it where you want the sharpest focus, or do you want the eye to be the back of the depth of field or the front. There are three possibilities. If you rely on eye AF, I assume you are exploring only "eye in the sharpest focus", as opposed to moving the DoF around for the best working image.

Just thinking out loud here.

My suspicion is as long as the eye is somewhere within the DoF, you're good. But who know? maybe these things matter.

For staged studio type portraits I like Richard Avedon's style, the whole body is focus, the DoF placement is important, not just the eye.. I'm not sure Eye AF would help with that.
https://www.slrlounge.com/how-to-photograph-like-richard-avedon/

Totally different values from what you seem to be proposing.

One of the ladies I went out with's father owned an ad agency and hired Avedon for a shoot in '75. $2000 an image, no retakes. Just saying.

I'm just trying to get an handle on the niche Eye AF might be filling.

vector · 09-13-2019, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by normhead

The reason for using Live View is it clearly defines where the depth of field is, based on where your camera is focussed, and with most images in macro, the fact that the OVF AF tells something is in focus without really telling you exactly what. There simply is no comparable OVF setting until a hybrid viewfinder comes out.

Absolutely. I use live view with focus peaking for landscapes on a tripod when I want to zoom into live view and make sure the focus is perfect. For taking pictures of people I personally don't like using live view. Mainly because I like to do it handheld and I don't like holding the camera and lens out in front of me for more than a couple shots. I prefer to hold the camera to my eye where I am much more sturdy and therefore accurate. I do it sometimes though, and focus peaking is quite helpful as is zooming in. Like I said this is one point where I concede a mirrorless advantage because I could do all that in the EVF while in my preferred shooting stance. However, at normal portrait distances I haven't had any problem with AF or MF through the OVF nailing focus on the eyes at F2-2.8 for stationary subjects. At 1.4 even the slightest twitch can cause a focus miss no matter what you are shooting with, but if I'm careful I can make it work. Also, I am not a pro, just a hobbyist with a limited budget, but I think a lot of folks on this forum are as well. So I thought pointing out that fine tuning your MF lenses may help someone who didn't realize that it makes OVF manual focus usable since you can then rely on the confirmation lighting up in the viewfinder. If I were doing paid work I probably wouldn't be using budget MF lenses, but for a hobby I find it fun and rewarding.

ZombieArmy · 09-13-2019, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by normhead

But the next question is if you're doing a portrait at ƒ1.2, I know you want the eye in focus, but is it where you want the sharpest focus, or do you want the eye to be the back of the depth of field or the front. There are three possibilities. If you rely on eye AF, I assume you are exploring only "eye in the sharpest focus", as opposed to moving the DoF around for the best working image.

I do think part of it is the current obsession that shooting wide open at these extreme apertures like 1.2 is so insanely in vogue. You don't need anywhere near 1.2 to create pop or subject isolation, and sometimes when you do you lose beautiful context.

Not to mention some poses just look ugly at that aperture, I see so many portraits ruined by it.

Culture · 09-13-2019, 10:46 AM

@ Dan Rantea. I humbly beg you not to reply to the thread anymore. Its obvious some people just like to fight.

Really?? Its hard for Dan Rantea to comprehend DOF? What an insult? Really??

Yes I know that there freedom of speech but there is common decency too.

I ask @BigMack to close all threads that has comparisons between DSLR and MILC's in the future. The topic has been discussed enough.

Dan Rentea · 09-13-2019, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Ah, there we have it. If your photography is largely ƒ1.2 to ƒ4 corporate studio shots, Dan's advice may be worth something to you.

Normhead, please read what I write. I said and I quote myself "because I don't shoot at f5.6 or f8 more than a few times when I shoot corporate portraits in studio". I know my english it's not my native language, but I think that it's understandable that I wanted to say I shoot between f5.6 and f8 when I shoot corporate portraits.

On any other type of portraits I go with an aperture between f1.4 to f4 because I like the look and because that's why I invested in fast primes. I can get blured background even at f8, depending on several aspects, but again, af tests are usually done at wide aperture, not at f7-f9 apertures.

---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 06:03 PM ----------

Originally posted by Culture

@ Dan Rantea. I humbly beg you not to reply to the thread anymore. Its obvious some people just like to fight.

Really?? Its hard for Dan Rantea to comprehend DOF. What an insult? Really??

Yes I know that there freedom of speech but there is common decency too.

I ask @BigMack to close all threads that has comparisons between DSLR and MILC's in the future. The topic has been discussed enough.

Are you in a bad mood or something? What part of moving subject related to tiny DOF created by long focal lengh lenses used at wide aperture is wrong? It's all I said and I said I prefer to use mirrorless cameras when I shoot at wide apertures because eye af and the focusing points spreaded all over the frame helps. Do you see me saying that is wrong to shoot portraits at f9 or f16?

You should take a look at the images I posted in this forum and maybe you will realize I know what DOF is.

But I'm willing to learn so feel free to give me some examples of DOF...

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 09-13-2019 at 11:07 AM.

jack002 · 09-13-2019, 11:09 AM - **1 Like**

[at the risk of stirring the pot, I add my 2c, if you don't agree, its ok, we all have different opinions. Let the pot remain no further stirred]

The only big plus a mirrorless camera offers (to me) is the mounting flange is so close to the sensor, it makes a camera a universal lens camera. The Sony (I forget the model) that came out will take all makes and models of lens. That's cool. Imagine having one camera that will work with all lenses. Face and eye detect on AF also should be a plus. I don't use my AF much, so I can't see much gain to me personally for that. I can see how others need it.

The big minus to me is the battery useage. They take more power to use. I don't want to keep several batteries charged and ready or add a big battery pack if I don't have to. I'm fine with my optical viewfinder and I'm not a bleeding edge gotta have what's new type person anyway. I will let the others debate and discuss and then buy one that's like 1-3 years old and use that. Saving all kinds of money waiting. (shooting with 40 year old glass, winning ^ 2)

I agree with the first post. Its mostly all an advantage for the manufacturer, they save lots on making them. Hardly seems a reason for a consumer to jump at it. *shrug*

normhead · 09-13-2019, 11:14 AM

SO let's just leave it at that.

Quote:

I said I prefer to use mirrorless cameras when I shoot at wide apertures because eye af and the focusing points spreaded all over the frame helps.

I'll just add, I haven't ever thought I needed the help of focus points spread all over the frame or Eye AF enough to purchase a camera to obtain those features. Others mileage may vary.

Culture · 09-13-2019, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

Normhead, please read what I write. I said and I quote myself "because I don't shoot at f5.6 or f8 more than a few times when I shoot corporate portraits in studio". I know my english it's not my native language, but I think that it's understandable that I wanted to say I shoot between f5.6 and f8 when I shoot corporate portraits.

On any other type of portraits I go with an aperture between f1.4 to f4 because I like the look and because that's why I invested in fast primes. I can get blured background even at f8, depending on several aspects, but again, af tests are usually done at wide aperture, not at f7-f9 apertures.

---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 06:03 PM ----------

Are you in a bad mood or something? What part of moving subject related to tiny DOF created by long focal lengh lenses used at wide aperture is wrong? It's all I said and I said I prefer to use mirrorless cameras when I shoot at wide apertures because eye af and the focusing points spreaded all over the frame helps. Do you see me saying that is wrong to shoot portraits at f9 or f16?

You should take a look at the images I posted in this forum and maybe you will realize I know what DOF is.

But I'm willing to learn so feel free to give me some examples of DOF...

Dan, I am in a bad mood not because of you. I am in bad mood for someone saying that you dont understand DOF.

**BigMackCam** · 09-13-2019, 11:19 AM - **2 Likes**

OK, fellas, let's bring it back down, please. There's room for everyone's opinions as well as everyone's preferences without the need for in-fighting.

Thank you

Trickortreat · 09-13-2019, 11:22 AM

Don't worry... Some people just cant comprehend that others have different needs and get too emotionally attached to gear...

---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 08:30 PM ----------

Originally posted by biz-engineer

You ask him for a photo session outdoors, or even in a studio, not during the race. The best professional photos of our regional rugby club are taken in a studio with strobes. Of course hobby photographer want to be able to get good photos without proper setup, they are the customers targeted by Sony by making feature that allow anyone with no know-how to take Ok (but not great) pictures. All this is very consumer.

Isnt taking a photo of sprinter actually doing his sprint far more interesting than some lifeless studio shoot?

Dan Rentea · 09-13-2019, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by normhead

I'll just add, I haven't ever thought I needed the help of focus points spread all over the frame or Eye AF enough to purchase a camera to obtain those features. Others mileage may vary.

And do you see me arguing with your shooting style? Of course not. You can shoot portraits at f16 if this is what you want and the end results looks good.

For the ones who shoot portraits at wide apertures, maybe one of my comments from above will be helpful. That's all I wanted to say with my first comment because as I said, for every 10 guys who like to shoot mirrorless there will be 10 who like to shoot with DSLRs and there is nothing wrong with that. Again, you have a few options when comes to see which camera feels better:

1. rent the mirrorless camera you are interested in and which it's available in a budget you have
2. read internet reviews and watch youtube influencers videos
3. read forums and see what people are writing from their own experience
4. ask some friends you trust their opinion

I always go for the first option and then I go for the 3th one. I look at forum reviews because I look only at the bad things that users are writing about and focus on them when I go out and test cameras. I do this because people have different style and expectations when comes to ISO, dynamic range, Af, etc.

But if every time someone has to transform a discusssion into a "fight" (it's not the case between you and I), then the main point of these discussions is lost...

---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 06:33 PM ----------

Originally posted by Culture

Dan, I am in a bad mood not because of you. I am in bad mood for someone saying that you dont understand DOF.

I understand it. Or at least I think. If you want to have a conversation about DOF with examples and arguments, please open a new topic and I'm sure it will be a great one because if we post lots of photos the topic will not be associated with a fighting club.

normhead · 09-13-2019, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Dan Rentea

And do you see me arguing with your shooting style? Of course not. You can shoot portraits at f16 if this is what you want and the end results looks good.

For the ones who shoot portraits at wide apertures, maybe one of my comments from above will be helpful. That's all I wanted to say with my first comment because as I said, for every 10 guys who like to shoot mirrorless there will be 10 who like to shoot with DSLRs and there is nothing wrong with that. Again, you have a few options when comes to see which camera feels better:

1. rent a mirrorless camera you are interested and which it's available in a budget you have
2. read internet reviews and watch youtube influencers videos
3. read forums and see what people are writing from their own experience
4. ask some friends you trust their opinion

I always go for the first option and then I go for the 3th one. I look at forum reviews because I look only at the bad things that users are writing about and focus on them when I go out and test cameras. I do this because people have different style and expectations when comes to ISO, dynamic range, Af, etc.

But if every time someone has to transform a discusssion into a "fight" (it's not the case between you and I), then the main point of these discussions is lost...

---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 06:33 PM ----------

I understand it. Or at least I think. If you want to have a conversation about DOF with examples and arguments, please open a new topic and I'm sure it will be a great one because if we post lots of photos the topic will not be associated with a fighting club.

Just in case it wasn't clear. I'm done with this conversation.

Dan Rentea · 09-13-2019, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Trickortreat

Isnt taking a photo of sprinter actually doing his sprint far more interesting than some lifeless studio shoot?

Studio shots are usually the ones used by marketing companies and maybe he is referring to those type of shots. But if a client wants a shot outdoor with a runner jogging it's very difficult for a model to stay put and mimic natural movement of legs and arms. For those shots you need the model to run and depending on the look you want, you use strobes with modifiers.

09-13-2019, 10:08 AM	#63
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Dan Rentea I think you got this wrong. No one is criticising your image. I only spoke about DOF and af regarding your image. And my image wasn't posted to inspire anyone; it is part of a test shot to see how af works at wide aperture on mirrorless and on DSLR cameras. I make this kind of extensive tests when I go out to see the limitations of my gear and work with them. And yes, I do af tests at apertures between f1.2 and f3.2 and in different lighting situation to see how it performs because I don't shoot at f5.6 or f8 more than a few times when I shoot corporait portraits in studio. I shoot mostly between f1.4 and f4. At f9 (not to mention on a crop camera) you don't need af at all on a person running because as I said, there is a lot of DOF there to keep even an elephant in focus. I don't want to start a debate here because there will always be different opinions on pretty much every subject. I just said from the perspective of a guy who shoots with DSLR and mirrorless why I tend to grab the mirrorless camera instead of my DSLR. You can shoot anything with everything, but I find (I speak from my own perspective) easier to shoot portraits with mirrorless and wildlife with DSLR. For pretty much anything else I like mirrorless because it's a more fun shooting experience for me. Ah, there we have it. If your photography is largely ƒ1.2 to ƒ4 corporate studio shots, Dan's advice may be worth something to you. Happy to help clarify that. I used to do studio shots with a view camera, so my take is the need for eye AF will depend on your skill level. But the next question is if you're doing a portrait at ƒ1.2, I know you want the eye in focus, but is it where you want the sharpest focus, or do you want the eye to be the back of the depth of field or the front. There are three possibilities. If you rely on eye AF, I assume you are exploring only "eye in the sharpest focus", as opposed to moving the DoF around for the best working image. Just thinking out loud here. My suspicion is as long as the eye is somewhere within the DoF, you're good. But who know? maybe these things matter. For staged studio type portraits I like Richard Avedon's style, the whole body is focus, the DoF placement is important, not just the eye.. I'm not sure Eye AF would help with that. https://www.slrlounge.com/how-to-photograph-like-richard-avedon/ Totally different values from what you seem to be proposing. One of the ladies I went out with's father owned an ad agency and hired Avedon for a shoot in '75. $2000 an image, no retakes. Just saying. I'm just trying to get an handle on the niche Eye AF might be filling. Last edited by normhead; 09-13-2019 at 10:28 AM.

09-13-2019, 10:46 AM	#66
Culture Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Vaasa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 818	@ Dan Rantea. I humbly beg you not to reply to the thread anymore. Its obvious some people just like to fight. Really?? Its hard for Dan Rantea to comprehend DOF? What an insult? Really?? Yes I know that there freedom of speech but there is common decency too. I ask @BigMack to close all threads that has comparisons between DSLR and MILC's in the future. The topic has been discussed enough. Last edited by Culture; 09-13-2019 at 11:14 AM.

09-13-2019, 11:31 AM	#73
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by normhead I'll just add, I haven't ever thought I needed the help of focus points spread all over the frame or Eye AF enough to purchase a camera to obtain those features. Others mileage may vary. And do you see me arguing with your shooting style? Of course not. You can shoot portraits at f16 if this is what you want and the end results looks good. For the ones who shoot portraits at wide apertures, maybe one of my comments from above will be helpful. That's all I wanted to say with my first comment because as I said, for every 10 guys who like to shoot mirrorless there will be 10 who like to shoot with DSLRs and there is nothing wrong with that. Again, you have a few options when comes to see which camera feels better: 1. rent the mirrorless camera you are interested in and which it's available in a budget you have 2. read internet reviews and watch youtube influencers videos 3. read forums and see what people are writing from their own experience 4. ask some friends you trust their opinion I always go for the first option and then I go for the 3th one. I look at forum reviews because I look only at the bad things that users are writing about and focus on them when I go out and test cameras. I do this because people have different style and expectations when comes to ISO, dynamic range, Af, etc. But if every time someone has to transform a discusssion into a "fight" (it's not the case between you and I), then the main point of these discussions is lost... ---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 06:33 PM ---------- Originally posted by Culture Dan, I am in a bad mood not because of you. I am in bad mood for someone saying that you dont understand DOF. I understand it. Or at least I think. If you want to have a conversation about DOF with examples and arguments, please open a new topic and I'm sure it will be a great one because if we post lots of photos the topic will not be associated with a fighting club. Last edited by Dan Rentea; 09-13-2019 at 11:42 AM.

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09-13-2019, 09:36 AM	#61
Bob 256 Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Idaho Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	It's a great type of camera to consider for full-spectrum conversion since an optical viewfinder is useless for infrared and UV use because normally used lens filters block most all visible light.

09-13-2019, 09:42 AM - 2 Likes	#62
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by normhead Dan, I know this is hard for you to comprehend, but shallow DoF is not the only way to create subject isolation, for many of us it looks fake.It's been that way for 70 years, the argument between the "Use Shallow DoF" and the "Learn some composition skills" camps. You speak to one camp. I'm not going to criticize your image, more than to say it didn't inspire me to rush out and by your camera. Not because I can't, but because it would be pointless. Odd how you take it on yourself to be critical of images, because they aren't to your taste. That's just reprehensible . We are all capable of getting what we want. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing a portrait at ƒ9. Get used to it. My point is, if you like eye AF go for it. But any given person may decide not to do that and be quite happy. If that's all MILCs have to offer, it's irrelevant to me and many others, most fo the forum actually. Do you like this or that. If they like yours, maybe Eye AF will help, if you like mine, you don't need it. Just a bit of info to help folks understand the context. I think you got this wrong. No one is criticising your image. I only spoke about DOF and af regarding your image. And my image wasn't posted to inspire anyone; it is part of a test shot to see how af works at wide aperture on mirrorless and on DSLR cameras. I make this kind of extensive tests when I go out to see the limitations of my gear and work with them. And yes, I do af tests at apertures between f1.2 and f3.2 and in different lighting situation to see how it performs because I don't shoot at f5.6 or f8 more than a few times when I shoot corporait portraits in studio. I shoot mostly between f1.4 and f4. At f9 (not to mention on a crop camera) you don't need af at all on a person running because as I said, there is a lot of DOF there to keep even an elephant in focus. I don't want to start a debate here because there will always be different opinions on pretty much every subject. I just said from the perspective of a guy who shoots with DSLR and mirrorless why I tend to grab the mirrorless camera instead of my DSLR. You can shoot anything with everything, but I find (I speak from my own perspective) easier to shoot portraits with mirrorless and wildlife with DSLR. For pretty much anything else I like mirrorless because it's a more fun shooting experience for me.

09-13-2019, 10:23 AM	#64
vector Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Alberta Posts: 713	Originally posted by normhead The reason for using Live View is it clearly defines where the depth of field is, based on where your camera is focussed, and with most images in macro, the fact that the OVF AF tells something is in focus without really telling you exactly what. There simply is no comparable OVF setting until a hybrid viewfinder comes out. Absolutely. I use live view with focus peaking for landscapes on a tripod when I want to zoom into live view and make sure the focus is perfect. For taking pictures of people I personally don't like using live view. Mainly because I like to do it handheld and I don't like holding the camera and lens out in front of me for more than a couple shots. I prefer to hold the camera to my eye where I am much more sturdy and therefore accurate. I do it sometimes though, and focus peaking is quite helpful as is zooming in. Like I said this is one point where I concede a mirrorless advantage because I could do all that in the EVF while in my preferred shooting stance. However, at normal portrait distances I haven't had any problem with AF or MF through the OVF nailing focus on the eyes at F2-2.8 for stationary subjects. At 1.4 even the slightest twitch can cause a focus miss no matter what you are shooting with, but if I'm careful I can make it work. Also, I am not a pro, just a hobbyist with a limited budget, but I think a lot of folks on this forum are as well. So I thought pointing out that fine tuning your MF lenses may help someone who didn't realize that it makes OVF manual focus usable since you can then rely on the confirmation lighting up in the viewfinder. If I were doing paid work I probably wouldn't be using budget MF lenses, but for a hobby I find it fun and rewarding.

09-13-2019, 10:23 AM	#65
ZombieArmy Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Florida Posts: 3,210 Original Poster	Originally posted by normhead But the next question is if you're doing a portrait at ƒ1.2, I know you want the eye in focus, but is it where you want the sharpest focus, or do you want the eye to be the back of the depth of field or the front. There are three possibilities. If you rely on eye AF, I assume you are exploring only "eye in the sharpest focus", as opposed to moving the DoF around for the best working image. I do think part of it is the current obsession that shooting wide open at these extreme apertures like 1.2 is so insanely in vogue. You don't need anywhere near 1.2 to create pop or subject isolation, and sometimes when you do you lose beautiful context. Not to mention some poses just look ugly at that aperture, I see so many portraits ruined by it.

09-13-2019, 10:55 AM	#67
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by normhead Ah, there we have it. If your photography is largely ƒ1.2 to ƒ4 corporate studio shots, Dan's advice may be worth something to you. Normhead, please read what I write. I said and I quote myself "because I don't shoot at f5.6 or f8 more than a few times when I shoot corporate portraits in studio". I know my english it's not my native language, but I think that it's understandable that I wanted to say I shoot between f5.6 and f8 when I shoot corporate portraits. On any other type of portraits I go with an aperture between f1.4 to f4 because I like the look and because that's why I invested in fast primes. I can get blured background even at f8, depending on several aspects, but again, af tests are usually done at wide aperture, not at f7-f9 apertures. ---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 06:03 PM ---------- Originally posted by Culture @ Dan Rantea. I humbly beg you not to reply to the thread anymore. Its obvious some people just like to fight. Really?? Its hard for Dan Rantea to comprehend DOF. What an insult? Really?? Yes I know that there freedom of speech but there is common decency too. I ask @BigMack to close all threads that has comparisons between DSLR and MILC's in the future. The topic has been discussed enough. Are you in a bad mood or something? What part of moving subject related to tiny DOF created by long focal lengh lenses used at wide aperture is wrong? It's all I said and I said I prefer to use mirrorless cameras when I shoot at wide apertures because eye af and the focusing points spreaded all over the frame helps. Do you see me saying that is wrong to shoot portraits at f9 or f16? You should take a look at the images I posted in this forum and maybe you will realize I know what DOF is. But I'm willing to learn so feel free to give me some examples of DOF... Last edited by Dan Rentea; 09-13-2019 at 11:07 AM.

09-13-2019, 11:09 AM - 1 Like	#68
jack002 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Missouri Photos: Albums Posts: 727	[at the risk of stirring the pot, I add my 2c, if you don't agree, its ok, we all have different opinions. Let the pot remain no further stirred] The only big plus a mirrorless camera offers (to me) is the mounting flange is so close to the sensor, it makes a camera a universal lens camera. The Sony (I forget the model) that came out will take all makes and models of lens. That's cool. Imagine having one camera that will work with all lenses. Face and eye detect on AF also should be a plus. I don't use my AF much, so I can't see much gain to me personally for that. I can see how others need it. The big minus to me is the battery useage. They take more power to use. I don't want to keep several batteries charged and ready or add a big battery pack if I don't have to. I'm fine with my optical viewfinder and I'm not a bleeding edge gotta have what's new type person anyway. I will let the others debate and discuss and then buy one that's like 1-3 years old and use that. Saving all kinds of money waiting. (shooting with 40 year old glass, winning ^ 2) I agree with the first post. Its mostly all an advantage for the manufacturer, they save lots on making them. Hardly seems a reason for a consumer to jump at it. shrug

09-13-2019, 11:14 AM	#69
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	SO let's just leave it at that. Quote: I said I prefer to use mirrorless cameras when I shoot at wide apertures because eye af and the focusing points spreaded all over the frame helps. I'll just add, I haven't ever thought I needed the help of focus points spread all over the frame or Eye AF enough to purchase a camera to obtain those features. Others mileage may vary.

09-13-2019, 11:15 AM	#70
Culture Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Vaasa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 818	Originally posted by Dan Rentea Normhead, please read what I write. I said and I quote myself "because I don't shoot at f5.6 or f8 more than a few times when I shoot corporate portraits in studio". I know my english it's not my native language, but I think that it's understandable that I wanted to say I shoot between f5.6 and f8 when I shoot corporate portraits. On any other type of portraits I go with an aperture between f1.4 to f4 because I like the look and because that's why I invested in fast primes. I can get blured background even at f8, depending on several aspects, but again, af tests are usually done at wide aperture, not at f7-f9 apertures. ---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 06:03 PM ---------- Are you in a bad mood or something? What part of moving subject related to tiny DOF created by long focal lengh lenses used at wide aperture is wrong? It's all I said and I said I prefer to use mirrorless cameras when I shoot at wide apertures because eye af and the focusing points spreaded all over the frame helps. Do you see me saying that is wrong to shoot portraits at f9 or f16? You should take a look at the images I posted in this forum and maybe you will realize I know what DOF is. But I'm willing to learn so feel free to give me some examples of DOF... Dan, I am in a bad mood not because of you. I am in bad mood for someone saying that you dont understand DOF.

09-13-2019, 11:19 AM - 2 Likes	#71
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	OK, fellas, let's bring it back down, please. There's room for everyone's opinions as well as everyone's preferences without the need for in-fighting. Thank you

09-13-2019, 11:22 AM	#72
Trickortreat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 561	Don't worry... Some people just cant comprehend that others have different needs and get too emotionally attached to gear... ---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 08:30 PM ---------- Originally posted by biz-engineer You ask him for a photo session outdoors, or even in a studio, not during the race. The best professional photos of our regional rugby club are taken in a studio with strobes. Of course hobby photographer want to be able to get good photos without proper setup, they are the customers targeted by Sony by making feature that allow anyone with no know-how to take Ok (but not great) pictures. All this is very consumer. Isnt taking a photo of sprinter actually doing his sprint far more interesting than some lifeless studio shoot?

09-13-2019, 11:34 AM	#74
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Dan Rentea And do you see me arguing with your shooting style? Of course not. You can shoot portraits at f16 if this is what you want and the end results looks good. For the ones who shoot portraits at wide apertures, maybe one of my comments from above will be helpful. That's all I wanted to say with my first comment because as I said, for every 10 guys who like to shoot mirrorless there will be 10 who like to shoot with DSLRs and there is nothing wrong with that. Again, you have a few options when comes to see which camera feels better: 1. rent a mirrorless camera you are interested and which it's available in a budget you have 2. read internet reviews and watch youtube influencers videos 3. read forums and see what people are writing from their own experience 4. ask some friends you trust their opinion I always go for the first option and then I go for the 3th one. I look at forum reviews because I look only at the bad things that users are writing about and focus on them when I go out and test cameras. I do this because people have different style and expectations when comes to ISO, dynamic range, Af, etc. But if every time someone has to transform a discusssion into a "fight" (it's not the case between you and I), then the main point of these discussions is lost... ---------- Post added 09-13-19 at 06:33 PM ---------- I understand it. Or at least I think. If you want to have a conversation about DOF with examples and arguments, please open a new topic and I'm sure it will be a great one because if we post lots of photos the topic will not be associated with a fighting club. Just in case it wasn't clear. I'm done with this conversation.

09-13-2019, 11:40 AM	#75
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Originally posted by Trickortreat Isnt taking a photo of sprinter actually doing his sprint far more interesting than some lifeless studio shoot? Studio shots are usually the ones used by marketing companies and maybe he is referring to those type of shots. But if a client wants a shot outdoor with a runner jogging it's very difficult for a model to stay put and mimic natural movement of legs and arms. For those shots you need the model to run and depending on the look you want, you use strobes with modifiers.