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10-09-2019, 02:10 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
At least we mostly evolved past the point where it was considered normal to duel/murder a man who hurt your feelings.
It's funny watching 1960s western about the 1870s in 2019.
A man tries to shoot you or fist fight you and after that, if you live, you are friends but you call me a liar and I will shoot you or punch you and if you live we are life long enemies.
It is also interesting that my grandma saw buffalo bill. It is closer to us in time than it seems.

10-09-2019, 02:15 PM   #47
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Ugh, what a horrible story, hope the photographer recovers quickly.
10-09-2019, 06:55 PM - 2 Likes   #48
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That whole thing came across as a senseless gang initiation to prove that they belonged and were worthy.
How to stop that?
10-10-2019, 01:13 AM - 2 Likes   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ex Finn. Quote
That whole thing came across as a senseless gang initiation to prove that they belonged and were worthy.
How to stop that?
On an anecdotal level (that is, for specific cases) you cannot. This particular situation was, as you very well said, senseless, and there's no effective reactive response to senselessness.

On a systemic level, however, there are responses, with proactiveness normally being more effective. You take the gangs away. It's, however, difficult to just do that, and you're not acting on the root cause so they will resurface. Not really a proactive measure, you're just trimming the visible outcrops.
As you cannot simply get rid of the gangs, you reduce their danger by taking the gang's weapons away. Still not acting on the root cause and it will not be a complete solution. It's an effective bandaid, but it's only a bandaid in the end.
Failing that, you remove the socioeconomic inequalities that breed teens who will be easily enticed and influenced by gangs and substitute those conditions with access to proper education, support networks and basic needs. This is the only thing that will ultimately work, but it requires more than a decade and thus no politician will have the willpower to back such measures unless there is massive, continued social pressure for them.


Last edited by Serkevan; 10-10-2019 at 03:33 AM. Reason: Changed "efficient" to "effective", was leftover from post-in-progress
10-10-2019, 02:14 AM - 3 Likes   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lambic Quote
Naive, I'm sure, but I've yet to figure out how we ever got to the point where shooting somebody (in a non-war situation) is a reasonable consideration.
Not necessarily "naive", but blessed to have been raised in an environment in which self-defense was not something you had to think about every day. The thing is that some humans lack the self-discipline and self-control needed to live among other people. The more people you get in a defined area, the greater the probability that one or more of them will be likely to use criminal violence to try to effect his own immediate goals. The probability is one thing, the severity of the damage if the probability should become reality is another. The two together make "risk". Even if the probability is low (as it obviously was where you grew up), the risk posed by criminal violence is great. Hence stories like "In Cold Blood" (Truman Capote).

The moral of the story is, "be prepared". Especially mentally. In a defense-law seminar I was once asked (by one of those people to whom the gun is life itself), "What is the first thing you should do when you get up in the morning?" He was talking about the idea of activating the defensive strategy as the very first thing one should do when he opens his eyes in the morning. "Activate your brain", I said. The most important defensive tool you've got is between your ears.
10-10-2019, 02:46 AM   #51
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This is so sad. I don't know where these types of people come from? He's lucky to be survived after this accident.
10-10-2019, 10:00 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlh Quote
"What is the first thing you should do when you get up in the morning?" He was talking about the idea of activating the defensive strategy as the very first thing one should do when he opens his eyes in the morning. "Activate your brain", I said. The most important defensive tool you've got is between your ears.
The old OODA loop.
Many old ninja stories go even deeper. An old ninja wakes his apprentice to go outside and get the "bad" guy. After when asked how he knew he said the mosquitos had left the screen and the silence woke him.

10-10-2019, 04:28 PM - 1 Like   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
On an anecdotal level (that is, for specific cases) you cannot. This particular situation was, as you very well said, senseless, and there's no effective reactive response to senselessness.

On a systemic level, however, there are responses, with proactiveness normally being more effective. You take the gangs away. It's, however, difficult to just do that, and you're not acting on the root cause so they will resurface. Not really a proactive measure, you're just trimming the visible outcrops.
As you cannot simply get rid of the gangs, you reduce their danger by taking the gang's weapons away. Still not acting on the root cause and it will not be a complete solution. It's an effective bandaid, but it's only a bandaid in the end.
Failing that, you remove the socioeconomic inequalities that breed teens who will be easily enticed and influenced by gangs and substitute those conditions with access to proper education, support networks and basic needs. This is the only thing that will ultimately work, but it requires more than a decade and thus no politician will have the willpower to back such measures unless there is massive, continued social pressure for them.
Well said. I belonged to a gang long time ago. The Finnish Navy.
10-11-2019, 09:34 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
Violence was a larger problem long before any PF member was born. See graph below (which is supported by other sources). The cause of the ~1980 uptick is open to debate: lead exposure, the war on drugs, recession, etc. are frequently cited. At least we mostly evolved past the point where it was considered normal to duel/murder a man who hurt your feelings.


A crime puzzle: Violent crime declines in America • The Berkeley Blog
Good point that in many ways things are better, and thanks for the graph. Do you happen to know the units for the y-axis? I'm not totally clear on what is being presented.

I still find the lack of value placed on a life to be the most disturbing thing about all this, and that aligns with earlier comments that socioeconomic issues are the root cause.
10-11-2019, 02:51 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lambic Quote
Good point that in many ways things are better, and thanks for the graph. Do you happen to know the units for the y-axis? I'm not totally clear on what is being presented.

I still find the lack of value placed on a life to be the most disturbing thing about all this, and that aligns with earlier comments that socioeconomic issues are the root cause.
Oh, yes, that graph I linked is confusing by itself. The y-axis is homicides per 100,000 people.
10-12-2019, 07:51 AM   #56
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What we really need is "commonsense automobile control" - it's dramatic news when one person gets injured by extreme violence, but every day I watch local Washington DC news channels that consistently report on people being killed on local highways by "automobile violence". We've got tons of laws (one entire title of the Code of Virginia, 46.2, is devoted to nothing else) to control how people use cars, but there seems to be no way to get people to control their behavior or to effectively enforce the laws that exist. Hence the aphorism that, "When guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns."

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away; you are your own 'first responder'."
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