[PDL]

Android may be open source, but you also have to license a processor, license the protocols to interface with other chips, license other chips, and finally spend a lot of work interfacing it with a custom sensor. Although someone mentioned elsewhere, if someone made a computational photography camera but the form factor of Pentax Q, it would be amazing. Imagine google night sight on a 1" sensor compact camera, it would out perform dslrs in low light.

However, I do not think that Ricoh has the resources to pursue such an endeavor. If we look at the industry "standard" applications, you will soon discover that Pentax really lags behind in keeping up with the pack. First line RAW converters seem to be lacking in support for existing cameras (I'm looking at you Capture One) including profiles and lens support. Even if Ricoh/Pentax came out with a full blown 135 (aka full frame) mirrorless computational camera that would run at 30fps, have a DR of 18stops, do 8K video, have GPS/Astrotracker that allowed for hand held 8 hour images (aka Shake Removal) and have "constant" focus getting mental inputs, the standard industry software would still take years to get their software to work.

Please note: there is some satire here, along with a bit of frustration.

[kadajawi]

Good heavens you are young. My first cell phone was analogue and could barely make phone calls. When I did get a analogue/digital phone I disabled SMS because it cost me 50 cents per message.
-snip

So I take it you have never been in a location where there is no Cell coverage. You do know that there are places where there is no cell coverage and no Wi-Fi. Getting affordable cell coverage while in Europe was an issue for me. My cell provider set up a system for me that limited data to 200MB per month before getting charged out the yin-yang per MB of data. Even when I bought a SIM so I could use more data, once I crossed a boarder, the SIM stopped working. Not user friendly at all. Without me cell provider granting special fees, I can't use my phone in Canada - heck they even fought me for nearly a day when I had a vacation in Alaska. There are very large sections of Alaska that have zero Cell coverage. There is almost zero coverage in Yellowstone and in the surrounding areas. It's a black hole. So "professionals" that REQUIRE cell/Wi-Fi in their cameras will not be going there. Heck Google maps does not work without a cell/Wi-Fi connection - so they would be out of luck.

Did you read what he wrote? He used his cell phone to post images on Instagram.

So you are advocating for the overall death of cameras as we know them. Well, if your standards fall to that level so be it.

Your second line should say - some new phones outperform old laptops. As for Cell phone processors getting put into laptops, yes that is true. But those laptops are like Cell phones - not easily upgraded in terms of hardware (new graphics GPUs, storage - read SSD's etc.) As for me personally, who cares what Apple does? I don't have any Apple products.

Boy talking about the obvious. It is in the decisions made after the image is taken that is robotic in your new world.

If you just want to use Green mode, then go do it. Accept what the people behind the scenes think is important and just move on. If you want Apps on cameras then just use a cell phone and throw your DSLR's away. You will be happier. If part of your job is to "experience" phones, then just use phones.

Admittedly yes, my first phone was already using GSM. I didn't see a need for one earlier.

No cell coverage? It happens. D'uh. But who is talking about a camera that stops working when there's no internet? That's ridiculous. The camera has to work even if it is never, ever connected to the internet. Not even once. It's just about adding the possibility, so that those who want to use it can. Also, for me professional photographer means earning money with photography. That tends to be weddings, events, corporate shoots, product shoots, ... and there, connectivity can help.

He used his cell phone to post photos captured on a DSLR on Instagram. What is wrong about that?!

DSLRs (mostly) replaced SLRs. CMOS replaced CCD. Cameras are getting more advanced and better. I am advocating for using technologies developed for smartphones to be used in DSLRs and mirrorless cameras, IF they benefit more advanced photographers. I'm absolutely NOT talking about having some AI create a highly edited photo with sickening levels of HDR and what not. I'm talking about increasing dynamic range, low noise performance, shake reduction and other things like that. Just that unlike doing it physically, I'm fine with having software add up those pixels to the SAME result. IF camera makers aren't doing this, smartphones with relatively large sensors will overtake them in terms of quality. Not in terms of flexibility and usability, but in terms of pure quality.

Again: Not talking about Green mode. Imagine for example, that when you take a photo of something still, at 1/10th, the camera will take 5 photos at 1/50th each, over 1/10th of a second. The light collected in all 5 exposures is added up. What's the advantage over shooting just one photo? Simple. Bright scenes aren't overexposed nearly as easily. You get much improved dynamic range. Just a very simple example. The result is still a raw file. The result isn't processed, it's not a green mode or anything. ANY computational photography in a DSLR should be in service of giving the photographer MORE to work with. More data. More resolution (Pentaxes super resolution is a form of computational photography!).

Anyway: What I really want is computational photography and high performance hardware. If Android gets me there, fine. If the camera maker does it another way, great. I see that some would benefit more from Android though, so I'm not opposed to that. And if using Android lets others create apps that enable some specialized function that the camera maker didn't think of/doesn't think is worth their while, then great. Panasonic has not implemented that feature that lets you move around the sensor to adjust composition - something that I think is brilliant, but few probably only use. If a third party app lets me do that, I'm not depending on the creativity of the camera maker anymore. That would be wonderful. Also, as seen in the world of smartphones, when a manufacturer has forgotten their product, third party developers can pick up.

---------- Post added 19-11-19 at 02:51 ----------

Of course I had older smartphones. I stopped using those because they were too slow, and in some cases updates to newer Android versions made them even slower.
Android needs security updates; my cameras, not so much. You see, a camera has a much smaller attack surface; you want them to change that.

The NX-1 was not an Android camera. Yes, Samsung had some Android cameras and they were utterly ridiculous.


To... what?
You're mistaken if you believe one useful app doing some auxiliary task can offset damaging the basic camera operation.


Nice try. First, you don't know it would last weeks (I'm sure it wouldn't); then, you want changing the camera towards your usage of a smartphone. By admitting that adding connected apps and Java and whatever you'd get awful battery life...


Pentax' 18-55s are all kit lenses, and not in the sense as the D FA 28-105. They're also in a different price league - you can get one for under $200, compared to the $1000 12-60 f/2.8-4 or the $1100 35-100.
The m4/3 lenses are smaller because they're mirrorless lenses. Yes, ultra wides are where it matters most.
The size gain due to software corrections aren't as large as you're presenting.


Do you honestly believe I'm the only one with such an informed opinion about using Android for a DSLR?
And what's up with the strawman? I'm not for removing any feature!

Fair enough, it wasn't. It did use smartphone related processors etc.

One advantage of going with Android would be not having to reinvent the wheel for many things. And going with any other Linux-based system wouldn't really fix the security issues etc., would it? You can lock down Linux, you can lock down Android. If necessary.


Power efficiency also comes from using modern hardware.

Yes, there would not be a community effort for Pentax. But if more than just Pentax would be using an Android-based/Linux-based system, making use of stock APIs, it could make such a community more viable. Of course that wouldn't be in the interest of the companies, so I doubt it would happen.

---------- Post added 19-11-19 at 02:58 ----------

So, you are proposing that a company (Ricoh) build a camera. To build that camera, they need a processor, mother board with the appropriate hardware components to communicate with guts of the camera, a shutter, a sensor, a memory interface (SD card/USB interface) and for you JPEG shooters a JPEG engine (currently a custom chip). Add in a "Accelerator" for custom processing.

Now Ricoh is going to open this all up to outside people because group think is better than having control over "THEIR" camera? Who is going to vet changes, where is the software version control going to be managed. Will the OS/processing be forked every time someone else decides to "add"/"remove" a feature? I believe that doing this would kill that camera and possibly turn the brand into a pariah.

If you look at Open Source projects they do tend to have a controlling structure behind them. They are not free for all's.

I have worked with several groups that create/maintain embedded systems. The choice of hardware is limited and in some cases (like cameras) custom designed and fabricated for the particular purpose of the device. The amount of resources is severely limited as is such as clock speed, memory, power consumption, heat dissipation and physical space. These constraints are just a small part of the equation. These systems are viewed as overall designs not just a additional "App" that is thrown into the system.

Phones have a great deal of "free" memory. That is where "Apps" go. Apps do not get into the guts of the base OS and redefine how the hardware/OS apportions resources. Embedded systems (cameras in this case) use the absolute minimum hardware to get the job done. You do not just "add a MicroSD" to get more system memory or create new buffers/data busses etc. out of thin air.

From what I have read here, I don't think any of you have the simplest idea of what it takes to work in embedded environments. Oh - and when your "tinkering" bricks your camera, who do you send it to for repair? Ricoh? Precision? Or do you have the capability to trivially pop the thing open (disrupting Weather Resistance) find the correct pins and re-flash the system.

This I find very interesting. Isn't this exactly why using an OS that allows for apps would be useful? That way, you don't have to deal with the nitty gritty just in order to implement an intervalometer. And Android is simply what many are experienced with.


Also, a modern smartphone processor does most of what is needed for a camera (as smartphones are cameras). Use one of those. "All you need" to add is a way for the processor to communicate with the shutter and with the dials.

[y0chang]

However, I do not think that Ricoh has the resources to pursue such an endeavor. If we look at the industry "standard" applications, you will soon discover that Pentax really lags behind in keeping up with the pack. First line RAW converters seem to be lacking in support for existing cameras (I'm looking at you Capture One) including profiles and lens support. Even if Ricoh/Pentax came out with a full blown 135 (aka full frame) mirrorless computational camera that would run at 30fps, have a DR of 18stops, do 8K video, have GPS/Astrotracker that allowed for hand held 8 hour images (aka Shake Removal) and have "constant" focus getting mental inputs, the standard industry software would still take years to get their software to work.

Please note: there is some satire here, along with a bit of frustration.

Lack of support by Capture one is because Phase One does not want to support its Medium Format competitor, but yes I understand your frustration. I don't think Ricoh is completely behind on processing, there has to be a lot of computational power behind the Theta. Ricoh obviously has a source of 1" sensors, but I am sure they are not going to develop a compact camera in the age of mirrorless.

[kadajawi]

Well DPR and its ilk, are the 800 pound gorillas being that they are usually places where people go to get "opinion" and guidance. When using Mirrorless/DSLR's/Rangefinders etc. the overall position is that anything that "interferes" with RAW processing is running against a huge headwind. Since we are talking about Pentax here, we are talking about a minority manufacture who has a real issue getting new customers. If they decide to go out on a limb and allow third party applications to be loaded onto their devices to "add features" not under their control they will die. Ricoh may not seen as being all that responsive to new things, but they are not stupid. So, when a off brand App bricks your camera or produces really bad image data who do you go to for repair? Will Ricoh just flash your camera back to its original settings for $300 bucks a pop and send you on your way?

So, who would be the gate keeper for these "Apps"? Ricoh? Google? You?
How would you propose to keep garbage "Apps" off of the camera. Just how much free memory/storage are you talking about? If you are talking Android, do you really want Google to control what goes on your camera? I for one do not.

It's unfortunate that people are unable to read. Read the bloody full review and THEN consider what you need and if the device fulfills your needs. Don't just go by the final rating. If people who really don't care about video are put off by DPR giving Pentax a bad review because of bad video, then... well, I'd say that's their problem, but really it is a problem for Pentax.

As for apps bricking the camera: I've been using Android for 10 years and would consider myself a heavy user. I've used 4 phones intensively, rooted them, installed custom ROMs. I've also had another 6 phones for a few months each. Not one of them was ever properly bricked, and certainly not because of an app. Getting into a boot loop when making a mistake while flashing a new firmware for example, yes. But nothing even getting close to that through an app. IMHO it's extremely unlikely (though not impossible) that an app can cause havok. And if the performance suffers... uninstall it.


There's always the possibility of a here be dragons setting, where it says that if you go there, warranty may be voided.

IMHO there are good reasons why Pentax is struggling with keeping/getting new customers, but that's off-topic, I won't go into that. I will say this much (as it relates to the thread): I think Pentax isn't daring enough. Isn't innovative enough. And I think they are behind the curve when it comes to adopting newer technology.

Android can be AOSP, which is at least with less involvement by Google.

[lotech]

Being an IT people I don't think using an open source OS on camera is a good idea, not even the closed source M$ OS, I don't even like Android TV, I had enough with my Android phones there are still bugs and flaws here and there after all these years. I have never used a digital camera has so much bugs and flaws like the smart phone and need to update every few months, I still think a proprietary purpose built OS is best for the digital camera.

[PDL]

Lack of support by Capture one is because Phase One does not want to support its Medium Format competitor, but yes I understand your frustration. I don't think Ricoh is completely behind on processing, there has to be a lot of computational power behind the Theta. Ricoh obviously has a source of 1" sensors, but I am sure they are not going to develop a compact camera in the age of mirrorless.

And yet Phase One has gone in whole hog with Fuji and their Medium Format cameras, which in the long run will outsell Pentax by a long shot since Fuji cameras are actively being developed. Capture One has had a soft spot for Fuji ever since they came out with the X-Trans sensor. They have worked together for many years with an emphasis on the Fuji built in film emulations. Somewhere along the line, Pentax and Phase One had a falling out and hence Pentax is being ignored.

I agree that the Theta has to carry out quite a lot of internal processing. However, I don't think they have the resources to develop a heavy computational based NEW camera. Remember, the phone camera developers most likely have more engineers working on a given set of camera issues and apps than Ricoh has in its entire company. Take a look at Google, there are more engineers working on their next phone than Ricoh has in all of their imaging division.

---------- Post added 11-19-19 at 07:49 PM ----------

It's unfortunate that people are unable to read. Read the bloody full review and THEN consider what you need and if the device fulfills your needs. Don't just go by the final rating. If people who really don't care about video are put off by DPR giving Pentax a bad review because of bad video, then... well, I'd say that's their problem, but really it is a problem for Pentax.

Well, I for one do not base my camera purchases on other peoples opinions (i.e. reviewers). I was forced, in a way, to use an Android phone and as with you, I have not had a app brick my phone. Then I have about 10 none default apps. The biggest issue I has was my 64GB micro SD just quit on me a few weeks ago. I sent the old one back to SanDisk and they replaced it but all of the data on it were destroyed.

As for apps bricking the camera: I've been using Android for 10 years and would consider myself a heavy user. I've used 4 phones intensively, rooted them, installed custom ROMs. I've also had another 6 phones for a few months each. Not one of them was ever properly bricked, and certainly not because of an app. Getting into a boot loop when making a mistake while flashing a new firmware for example, yes. But nothing even getting close to that through an app. IMHO it's extremely unlikely (though not impossible) that an app can cause havok. And if the performance suffers... uninstall it.

Wow, 6 phones? I have not had a total of greater than six phones since I got my first one in 1996.

There's always the possibility of a here be dragons setting, where it says that if you go there, warranty may be voided.

And to my point, how many new customers are going to want to put something on their brand new phone that will violate the warranty. If you want to play with creating a new computational intensive camera - start out with Raspberry or some other SOC device. Remember cameras and phone software is written by teams of people, not the one off person.

IMHO there are good reasons why Pentax is struggling with keeping/getting new customers, but that's off-topic, I won't go into that. I will say this much (as it relates to the thread): I think Pentax isn't daring enough. Isn't innovative enough. And I think they are behind the curve when it comes to adopting newer technology.

Android can be AOSP, which is at least with less involvement by Google.

Ricoh is innovative enough to build the Theta and GR III. Pentax has Pixel Shift, IBIS, in camera HDR. This problem is, they are small and the market is shrinking. Besides it would take a big leap of faith to create a all new camera from the ground up.

What I would like to see is a K-01 type camera with a EVF, shaped like a square format box. Still use the K-Mount - because then you do not have to buy all new lenses. Who said that you have to have a mirrorless camera that looks like a DSLR - but thinner. There would be room for bigger batteries, handles, processors and memory cards (how about using three (3) microSD's?). Basically a K-3 II feature set but with a different form factor.

[beachgardener]

Just one word, NO.

[kadajawi]

And yet Phase One has gone in whole hog with Fuji and their Medium Format cameras, which in the long run will outsell Pentax by a long shot since Fuji cameras are actively being developed. Capture One has had a soft spot for Fuji ever since they came out with the X-Trans sensor. They have worked together for many years with an emphasis on the Fuji built in film emulations. Somewhere along the line, Pentax and Phase One had a falling out and hence Pentax is being ignored.

I agree that the Theta has to carry out quite a lot of internal processing. However, I don't think they have the resources to develop a heavy computational based NEW camera. Remember, the phone camera developers most likely have more engineers working on a given set of camera issues and apps than Ricoh has in its entire company. Take a look at Google, there are more engineers working on their next phone than Ricoh has in all of their imaging division.

True. Wish is why leveraging all that work might help Ricoh/Pentax, if they can get access to that tech. For example Xiaomi has heavily invested in improving their camera tech... what, if Ricoh was to coorperate with them? Work together, and what gets developed gets put into smartphones on the Xiaomi side and into DSLRs on the Pentax side, as far as it is useful of course.



---------- Post added 11-19-19 at 07:49 PM ----------

Well, I for one do not base my camera purchases on other peoples opinions (i.e. reviewers). I was forced, in a way, to use an Android phone and as with you, I have not had a app brick my phone. Then I have about 10 none default apps. The biggest issue I has was my 64GB micro SD just quit on me a few weeks ago. I sent the old one back to SanDisk and they replaced it but all of the data on it were destroyed.

Wow, 6 phones? I have not had a total of greater than six phones since I got my first one in 1996.

And to my point, how many new customers are going to want to put something on their brand new phone that will violate the warranty. If you want to play with creating a new computational intensive camera - start out with Raspberry or some other SOC device. Remember cameras and phone software is written by teams of people, not the one off person.

Ricoh is innovative enough to build the Theta and GR III. Pentax has Pixel Shift, IBIS, in camera HDR. This problem is, they are small and the market is shrinking. Besides it would take a big leap of faith to create a all new camera from the ground up.

What I would like to see is a K-01 type camera with a EVF, shaped like a square format box. Still use the K-Mount - because then you do not have to buy all new lenses. Who said that you have to have a mirrorless camera that looks like a DSLR - but thinner. There would be room for bigger batteries, handles, processors and memory cards (how about using three (3) microSD's?). Basically a K-3 II feature set but with a different form factor.

As a part time reviewer (smartphones, some cameras, speakers, headphones, ...), that hurts me Just kidding. I do read and watch reviews, but I try to form my own opinion from what I see. You can get some insight into the gear before actually buying it, and figure out if you'll end up liking it. I typically research a lot before the purchase, so I've never sent anything back yet.

The 4 phones I actually owned I've kept for a long time, until they really get too frustrating to use. But I think a camera using such software would be much longer lived, because of how limited the feature set is. At some point you won't be able to run newer software, but so be it. It's not the main functionality. And resetting the phone and then loading a settings file would be relatively trivial, so if you feel degradation, that'd be fixed. The only main issue besides initial performance and stability concerns (which I also have), is that the built in flash memory may be worn out.


Because the risk is pretty slim of having an app ruin the device to the point of bricking it, this here be dragons setting would really just be there to cover the manufacturers ass. But I don't think the makers of Android phones have to deal with this, so again, I wouldn't be worried about users being unable to use their camera and sending them in.

I would also like to see a K-01 type camera, though with better ergonomics. And the K-mount should turn into some sort of Kslim-mount. The K-mount adapter should be in the box/available as a bundle at the very least. With the adapter, the camera should work just like any other Pentax. But this enables users to adapt other lenses (M42, ...) and allows Pentax to develop smaller, more portable lenses. So when you want maximal portability, you throw on such a lens. If you want maximum image quality, you use adapter and a lens designed for great photos.

Several microSD slots would be great, as my K-5 LOVES killing SD cards. However some high performance camera (perhaps also with better video capabilities) could be using a M.2 2280 slot. That would mean up to 3 GB/s write speeds and 1 TB space for 130+ Euro.

For me, the perfect camera was the Panasonic G9. Add a smaller, lighter and slimmer camera like the GX80 and you have a wonderful kit. It would be nice if Pentax could create something competitive.

[BruceBanner]

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

[Serkevan]

iPhone 11 Pro VS $7500 Pro DSLR Camera - YouTube

With respect: in *all but one* comparisons, the smartphone photo is painfully obvious. And that is while watching the video on a smartphone screen; fullscreen on my 17" laptop (so, something like 15x20 cm per photo shown) is not even fun with how lopsided the comparison is. There is one that is a bit of a toss up, but that is because one crucial detail: all the pictures play to the advantages of the phone. There is no complicated lighting, no longer portraits, not a particularly busy background for the fake bokeh to mangle.

Not only that, the 1D has terrible IQ compared to other cameras, because it's built for speed. Good luck grabbing an antelope mid-run with the iphone... Those pictures could have been taken with a camera and lens cheaper than half the phone and the result would have been the exact same. The video is made for clicks ("uuh $7500 camera!" :Lol:), not for any serious comparison.

Don't get me wrong, nowadays phone pictures are *far more* than good enough for their intended watching medium - that is, phone screens - and it's impressive to see just how much tech can stretch a 1/1.7" or even 1/2.3" sensor. But in the end glass is glass and an iPhone's lens is not as good as a DSLR lens.

[BruceBanner]

With respect: in *all but one* comparisons, the smartphone photo is painfully obvious. And that is while watching the video on a smartphone screen; fullscreen on my 17" laptop (so, something like 15x20 cm per photo shown) is not even fun with how lopsided the comparison is. There is one that is a bit of a toss up, but that is because one crucial detail: all the pictures play to the advantages of the phone. There is no complicated lighting, no longer portraits, not a particularly busy background for the fake bokeh to mangle.

Not only that, the 1D has terrible IQ compared to other cameras, because it's built for speed. Good luck grabbing an antelope mid-run with the iphone... Those pictures could have been taken with a camera and lens cheaper than half the phone and the result would have been the exact same. The video is made for clicks ("uuh $7500 camera!" :Lol:), not for any serious comparison.

Don't get me wrong, nowadays phone pictures are *far more* than good enough for their intended watching medium - that is, phone screens - and it's impressive to see just how much tech can stretch a 1/1.7" or even 1/2.3" sensor. But in the end glass is glass and an iPhone's lens is not as good as a DSLR lens.

You perhaps missed my intent. It wasn't to show that camera phones have caught up to dslrs, but rather the computational photography benefits the phone platform is receiving. There are real benefits here that if the dslr market could start adopting would be extremely useful (and no doubt improve sales).

[Serkevan]

You perhaps missed my intent. It wasn't to show that camera phones have caught up to dslrs, but rather the computational photography benefits the phone platform is receiving. There are real benefits here that if the dslr market could start adopting would be extremely useful (and no doubt improve sales).

Oh, as I said in the last paragraph, those are impressive (I am fairly sure I have agreed with you already earlier in the thread; optional computational enhancements would be great). The video is mostly clickbait though

[BruceBanner]

Oh, as I said in the last paragraph, those are impressive (I am fairly sure I have agreed with you already earlier in the thread; optional computational enhancements would be great). The video is mostly clickbait though

Oh was it? Sorry my bad.. I never actually watched it

[ThorSanchez]

You perhaps missed my intent. It wasn't to show that camera phones have caught up to dslrs, but rather the computational photography benefits the phone platform is receiving. There are real benefits here that if the dslr market could start adopting would be extremely useful (and no doubt improve sales).

I've concluded that it is impossible to have that discussion on a DSLR forum like this one. Within a few posts the topic swerves away from the interesting things you could do with large-sensor computational photography into things like "even if you could do that it would have to be mirrorless... why do you hate Pentax?" and "computational photography (besides pixel shift) is fake photography" and best of all "if you think phone cameras are so great why don't you stick to your iPhone and sell me your K-whatever and all your lenses for $300". Bumping this thread is a lesson in continued futility.

[Serkevan]

I've concluded that it is impossible to have that discussion on a DSLR forum like this one. Within a few posts the topic swerves away from the interesting things you could do with large-sensor computational photography into things like "even if you could do that it would have to be mirrorless... why do you hate Pentax?" and "computational photography (besides pixel shift) is fake photography" and best of all "if you think phone cameras are so great why don't you stick to your iPhone and sell me your K-whatever and all your lenses for $300". Bumping this thread is a lesson in continued futility.

Honestly, it feels like that. But, whether we like it or not, painstakingly editing every picture, choosing this or that lens for their specific features and rendering instead of the spec sheet and this and that... that's a thing for serious hobbyists; not the kind of people that keep your business afloat in these times. Adding better connectivity, computational photography to, for example, get better portraits out of the kit lenses and this and that would help sales...