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12-16-2019, 07:48 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by MetteHHH Quote
There's just a greedy side of me that is trying to justify a second house for the non-birding, indoor photography.
With that, then, the question becomes (to me), “What are your output needs?” Are you going to be making large prints? If not, then how are you going to utilize the extra pixels? Without a use for the extra resolution, I’d be inclined to save the money for the new APSC.


Last edited by EssJayEff; 12-16-2019 at 08:13 AM. Reason: Correcting auto-incorrect
12-16-2019, 07:48 AM   #17
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+1 for APS-C... I prefer the lighter weight and less expensive cost of both the body and glass.
My biggest print is an 11X18 and my 20 MP APS-C does perfect.
12-16-2019, 08:09 AM   #18
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Get a K70 now, enjoy the low light performance now. Sell the K3ii when the new apsc flagship is out.

K1 means new lenses or new uses for old lenses. The driver should be more than just more low iso performance. If other than that you are happy trying the accelerated apsc seems like a natural option to test first.

Last edited by UncleVanya; 12-16-2019 at 06:04 PM.
12-16-2019, 08:14 AM - 1 Like   #19
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If the point is BIRDS then you are better off using a cropped sensor body. Why? Because invariably you will need to crop the image. When you crop a FF image you will effectively loose more pixels than you do cropping with a high density cropped body.

If your point is macro or landscapes then the K1 line can't be beat.

12-16-2019, 08:24 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by MetteHHH Quote
Funny: This sounds a LOT like the little imaginary creatures sitting on each of my shoulders and offering advice on the matter.
- slightly more seriously, since I got the K-1 I have relegated the K-3 the telephoto or macro, where the real advantages of APS-C are with greater effective reach and (inthis case) higher pixel density - but I only carry the K- 3 as a backup no for anything else
12-16-2019, 08:28 AM - 2 Likes   #21
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For nature photography the extra reach from the pixel dense crop sensor APS-C camera would be a benefit, as would the higher frame rate. The better low light performance of the larger pixels in a full frame would be better in dark areas. So my advise is get them both and then you have the best of both worlds, and since I'm suggesting others spend money I might as well suggest adding a 645Z just because
12-16-2019, 08:33 AM   #22
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Do what I do in the cold and dark Wisconsin winters - experiment with adapting various cheap lenses!


Read lens reviews here at PF and other websites. Then go out an purchase the inexpensive vintage lenses that interest you. Sometimes the lenses are a bust and you toss them. But other times you'll find a lens whose IQ you just love.

Lately I've been buying and adapting an old German Leica projection lens. I'm really liking the initial results I'm obtaining.


Such lens crafting and testing can certainly be successfully done "indoors" in the winter.
12-16-2019, 08:41 AM   #23
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I am a very amateur birder, but it is addictive. I have a K-1, but will be getting the new APSC when it come out. Consider your lenses.

Like you, I am always fighting for the light in wildlife shooting. My DA 300mm is sharpest at 5.6, which means using it on the APSC will effectively match what I get with my 150-450 on the K-1, which is sharpest around F8. Plus, I will get a few more pixels. Of course, beyond that, I will probably miss or want my K-1, to give me every photo of light I can get, FPS be damned. So, it's complicated. Still, it's not like you can truly go wrong with these options. Good luck!

12-16-2019, 08:45 AM   #24
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What lenses are you using? A lens upgrade might help as much as a camera upgrade

For wildlife, if you are using the 55-300, upgrading to DA* 300 f4 gives an extra stop of light.

For indoors, a faster lens is an obvious option, but you can also try a wider lens. Wide angles show less blur from shaking, so you can use a slower shutter speed handheld
12-16-2019, 09:56 AM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by MossyRocks Quote
So my advise is get them both and then you have the best of both worlds
Now, see, THIS is the kind of counselling I really like to hear! (Not 100% sure my husband would agree, though...)

QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
What lenses are you using? A lens upgrade might help as much as a camera upgrade
Well, this is very good advice, actually, but, uhm... been there, done that. I got my first DA* 300mm in November, 2011, and (although I somehow managed to break two copies, and my insurance company made a "special clause" just for me), it has barely left my camera since. I love the DA* 300mm.

Anyway, I still convinced myself back in 2017 that I needed the Sigma 500mm f4.5, because people kept telling me that my 300mm was too short.

Here are two pictures of a roller, that I took with the Sigma 500mm (the first) and the DA* 300mm (the second):

20181027Ellekrage5

20181027Ellekrage6

After a few field tests like that, I decided that they are both lovely lenses, but one of them allows effortless handheld shooting, while the other one gives me a sore shoulder for weeks and requires lugging a tripod around with me. I can't think of a relevant upgrade, really.

QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
For indoors, a faster lens is an obvious option, but you can also try a wider lens. Wide angles show less blur from shaking, so you can use a slower shutter speed handheld
Again, I am quite happy in the lens department: I have a DA15 mm ldt. But shaking isn't my problem - I simply want to be able to take pictures of people in ambient light without too much noise. Which I know is a lot to ask when light is as low as it is. But I think, for instance, that the K1 might have made a better job of this one:

20191214Kaniner1
12-16-2019, 11:07 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by MetteHHH Quote
So, first of all, I am well aware that this is very much a first world problem. Also, that the actual answer is just "no".

Do I need to get a K1?

I am first and foremost into wildlife photography, most of all birds, most of all birds in flight. But, honestly, THERE IS NO LIGHT!

My Nikon-cousin has gone full frame years ago. He never uses flash, and he gets lovely results with ambient light - even the hardly-there-at-all sort of ambient light you get in a Danish December. But I have told myself that the K1 is not for me, that I should wait for the next flagship APS-C - and now it is announced... but I am still in doubt.
In a general sense, you won't feel the "need" for FF until you start using one and then see the compromises you're making with APS-C.

Your situation is a bit different, however, because of birding. The max fps with a K1 is around 4 fps and a K3II is 8 fps. But in poor light, the K1 will at least get you a usable exposure.
Then there is the telephoto focal length advantage and lower overall cost with crop lenses vs. either having to crop with FF more or getting longer glass.

IF you can wait for the new APS-C flagship, then wait just to see it's low light abilities relative to the K1. But no one has that crystal ball and the K1 will get you results immediately.
12-16-2019, 11:11 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by MetteHHH Quote
I simply want to be able to take pictures of people in ambient light without too much noise.
Maybe try a different raw developer. I do a lot of shooting in bad light with the scouts and will regularly run my K-3 at ISO 6400 to 12800 so I can keep the shutter speed up above 1/200s. I usually use RawTherapee and make use of things like local contrast enhancement, upping the noise reduction as well as retain details plus multiple iterations with the median filter. I will usually use LMMSE with high ISO shots as I've found it gives better results.

QuoteOriginally posted by MetteHHH Quote
Now, see, THIS is the kind of counselling I really like to hear! (Not 100% sure my husband would agree, though...)
The trick there is to start negotiating with something else and back off. I would suggest starting with stating that you would like one of these with its little friend for that extra reach. Now that I am done with the silliness every system is a set of compromises so finding one to do it all perfectly is not going to happen so you are stuck picking what compromises you want. I do a lot of astro shooting and the extra reach with my K-3 over the K-1 is something I value more since the extra noise becomes less of a concern when one is already shooting hundreds to thousands of frames. For me, I would be far better served by throwing a good equatorial mount at the problem (about the same as a K-1ii) than I would by getting a K-1ii. In my non astro shooting it isn't my gear that is the limiting factor but is me.
12-16-2019, 11:24 AM - 1 Like   #28
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That last photo of the 2 kids was taken at ISO 6400. The K-1 does very well in that range. IMO it's less about "noise" and more about dynamic range and colors.


The K-1 at ISO 6400 is like a K-5 at ISO 3200, or a K-3 at approx. 2000.
12-16-2019, 11:33 AM   #29
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Two suggestions, Mette:
  1. Upgrade your RAW conversion software to DxO PhotoLab Elite 3 - this may give you significantly cleaner high-ISO images.
  2. Depending on your patience and budget, get either a KP or the upcoming APS-C flagship body, but only after you have developed some sense of what a mere software upgrade (plus getting used to and learning to use it) can do for improving your low-light images.
Just my two bits.

PS If you absolutely want FF, go and get a K-1 II without feeling guilty, as soon as the budget allows for it, but admit to yourself that it's because you want it, not because, strictly speaking, you need it.

Last edited by Madaboutpix; 12-16-2019 at 11:49 AM. Reason: PS added
12-16-2019, 12:37 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Madaboutpix Quote
Two suggestions, Mette:
  1. Upgrade your RAW conversion software to DxO PhotoLab Elite 3 - this may give you significantly cleaner high-ISO images.
  2. Depending on your patience and budget, get either a KP or the upcoming APS-C flagship body, but only after you have developed some sense of what a mere software upgrade (plus getting used to and learning to use it) can do for improving your low-light images.
Just my two bits.

PS If you absolutely want FF, go and get a K-1 II without feeling guilty, as soon as the budget allows for it, but admit to yourself that it's because you want it, not because, strictly speaking, you need it.
Thanks. I don't absolutely want it - I do absolutely want the new APS-C when it gets here, so your advice does make sense.

I have a good workflow, though, with my current software, which makes upgrading my software somewhat painful. I am using Lightroom 5.7 for RAW conversion, and I supplement that with the Topaz software suite - I don't use DeNoise so much, but there is a built-in noise reduction in Topaz Adjust that I use. I don't know. I have my whole Lightroom catalogue, currently 118,015 photos, indexed and tagged and whatnot. I already opted out on updating my Lightroom back when they switched to a cloud-based platform...

...maybe I should just wait for the light to return and go bake some cookies...
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