[photoptimist]

Thing is, it ain't gonna stop, no matter what we do (short of sterilizing the planet with hydrogen bombs, and I'm not sure even that would work). It's a wild thing, out in the wide world; sooner or later, everyone on the planet will have been exposed to it, and yes, many people will die, just as they do from all sorts of diseases. Suspending the Constitution, as they have in Maryland, isn't going to do anything to promote public health, but it is a really big toe in the doorway for future restrictions on civil rights. I figure that, as soon as most motorists obey the speed limits (which controls the distance within which the vehicle can be safely stopped), stop dead at stop signs, and learn and obey the rules of right-of-way, then they can talk about improving public health. Until then, all blather about a virus is mere hypocrisy; deaths from corona virus is nothing compared to deaths from the irresponsible use of motor vehicles. But no one panics about motor vehicle deaths, do they? Maybe we could get Michael Bloomberg's "red shirts" to get some "common sense virus reform" legislation to keep us safe from the coronavirus.

This line of logic that "we can't stop it, ergo do nothing" seems the absolute height of stupidity and immorality.

Sure, it's entirely true that no one and no strategy can guarantee that nobody else will get this and die.

But it's also true that a "do nothing" strategy guarantees a maximum number of deaths by overwhelming the healthcare system and ensuring that the >5% who get really sick from this are all but guaranteed to die.

Do people really have a civil right to infect other people? If my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins, then my right to cough/sneeze/spew/deposit droplets of COVID-19 likewise ends where your nose (and fingers) begins. IANAL, but maybe untested people, anyone exposed to someone sick, and everyone who is sick who goes out in public can be deemed guilty some sort of depraved indifference attempted assault with a deadly weapon charge if such crimes exist?

[Serkevan]

This line of logic that "we can't stop it, ergo do nothing" seems the absolute height of stupidity and immorality.

Sure, it's entirely true that no one and no strategy can guarantee that nobody else will get this and die.

But it's also true that a "do nothing" strategy guarantees a maximum number of deaths by overwhelming the healthcare system and ensuring that the >5% who get really sick from this are all but guaranteed to die.

Do people really have a civil right to infect other people? If my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins, then my right to cough/sneeze/spew/deposit droplets of COVID-19 likewise ends where your nose (and fingers) begins. IANAL, but maybe untested people, anyone exposed to someone sick, and everyone who is sick who goes out in public can be deemed guilty some sort of depraved indifference attempted assault with a deadly weapon charge if such crimes exist?

Completely different legal system, but as of Saturday, the Spanish government has passed a decree stating that breaking quarantine is a crime against public health - in the same category, IIRC, as selling drugs or adding toxic compounds to products.

EDIT: the worst part of the "can't 100% stop it so do nothing" is that it can be very easily followed to the logical conclusion of "why even bother having a legal system if it won't 100% stop criminals", or similar nonsense.

This line of logic that "we can't stop it, ergo do nothing" seems the absolute height of stupidity and immorality.

Sure, it's entirely true that no one and no strategy can guarantee that nobody else will get this and die.

But it's also true that a "do nothing" strategy guarantees a maximum number of deaths by overwhelming the healthcare system and ensuring that the >5% who get really sick from this are all but guaranteed to die.

Do people really have a civil right to infect other people? If my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins, then my right to cough/sneeze/spew/deposit droplets of COVID-19 likewise ends where your nose (and fingers) begins. IANAL, but maybe untested people, anyone exposed to someone sick, and everyone who is sick who goes out in public can be deemed guilty some sort of depraved indifference attempted assault with a deadly weapon charge if such crimes exist?

Going pretty far out on the limb, there, aren't we? I suggest you check what I wrote and see if I said anything at all about what 'ought to be done', before laying into me about what I think 'ought to be done'. But my observation wasn't about disease control, it was about panic control. This is not the most serious problem facing the world today, but people are acting as though it were the Final Battle of Armageddon. And in doing so, wreaking havoc unnecessarily on the world's economies.

But as to my views on what 'ought to be done': I always have enough stuff on hand to be able to hang on for six to eight weeks of forced isolation; I wash my hands correctly and frequently; I use "most sanitary mode" in my dishwasher, and wash clothes in hot water and detergent. I don't shake hands with people and then stick my finger in my eye or nose. The problem is that the idiots who don't take appropriate measures ALL THE TIME, are all freaking out because of their prior neglect and stupidity. Like I said, it's the same people who are too lazy to stop at stop signs. That's why there's not a scrap of fresh meat, no toilet paper, no cold medicine, no milk, etc. at the Wegman's store I went to this morning (good thing I only needed prescriptions filled). So what I think ought to be done is this: don't panic; be diligent about doing things right ALL THE TIME.

[beholder3]

yes, many people will die, just as they do from all sorts of diseases.

Reports from Italy seem to indicate that their healthcare system (which provides a little more hospital beds per capita than the US) is so overwhelmed that over 80 year old sick people are being sent home to potentially die, because the hospitals have to make a choice on whom to try to save. I do shudder. I have no words for it.

And the sole reason for this is the speed of cases coming in versus the small medical capacities. From what I read, experts assume the US is following the Italian path with about 10 days delay.

Please help humanity slow this contagion.

I hope you guys are all fine. I wish everyone the best.

[Dartmoor Dave]

Phew, this thread is a relief. I was starting to seriously pay attention to what the world's most knowledgeable epidemiologists are saying, but thankfully there's some people on a photography forum to tell me what to do instead.

[Serkevan]

Going pretty far out on the limb, there, aren't we? I suggest you check what I wrote and see if I said anything at all about what 'ought to be done', before laying into me about what I think 'ought to be done'. But my observation wasn't about disease control, it was about panic control. This is not the most serious problem facing the world today, but people are acting as though it were the Final Battle of Armageddon. And in doing so, wreaking havoc unnecessarily on the world's economies.

But as to my views on what 'ought to be done': I always have enough stuff on hand to be able to hang on for six to eight weeks of forced isolation; I wash my hands correctly and frequently; I use "most sanitary mode" in my dishwasher, and wash clothes in hot water and detergent. I don't shake hands with people and then stick my finger in my eye or nose. The problem is that the idiots who don't take appropriate measures ALL THE TIME, are all freaking out because of their prior neglect and stupidity. Like I said, it's the same people who are too lazy to stop at stop signs. That's why there's not a scrap of fresh meat, no toilet paper, no cold medicine, no milk, etc. at the Wegman's store I went to this morning (good thing I only needed prescriptions filled). So what I think ought to be done is this: don't panic; be diligent about doing things right ALL THE TIME.

You *did* say that nothing will stop "it" when clearly referring to the virus, which is patently false (look at South Korea, or heck, even China managed to curtail it). There are governmental actions that can be done, in particular, to slow down the spread and thus allow the healthcare systems to cope.


Regarding the panic, accidents don't spread. Diabetes and heart disease don't spread. This does, and has a very good chance of sending you to the ER in need of a respirator, with a decent chance of messing your lungs up, even for life. I have a much higher chance of suffering from this than I have of getting killed because a reckless [expletive] doesn't want to follow traffic signs*. Panic is a reaction that will happen and has to be managed.



*I don't remember traffic accidents ever collapsing several hospitals.

---------- Post added 03-16-20 at 10:50 AM ----------

Phew, this thread is a relief. I was starting to seriously pay attention to what the world's most knowledgeable epidemiologists are saying, but thankfully there's some people on a photography forum to tell me what to do instead.

Well, epidemiologists are saying to stay home and stop being suicidal little critters, but apparently a lot of people are hard of hearing

---------- Post added 03-16-20 at 10:52 AM ----------

Reports from Italy seem to indicate that their healthcare system (which provides a little more hospital beds per capita than the US) is so overwhelmed that over 80 year old sick people are being sent home to potentially die, because the hospitals have to make a choice on whom to try to save. I do shudder. I have no words for it.

And the sole reason for this is the speed of cases coming in versus the small medical capacities. From what I read, experts assume the US is following the Italian path with about 10 days delay.

Please help humanity slow this contagion.

I hope you guys are all fine. I wish everyone the best.

I am very worried about my family in Spain. Hospitals there are starting to feel the strain as well, and the speed of contagion is as fast or even faster than in Italy.

[aslyfox]

Phew, this thread is a relief. I was starting to seriously pay attention to what the world's most knowledgeable epidemiologists are saying, but thankfully there's some people on a photography forum to tell me what to do instead.

some of our members [ myself included ] can be relied upon to offer opinions

what value to place on those opinions may be a different question


by the way, I am not a medical expert, have never played one on stage or screen - large or small - and I didn't spend last night at any hotel/motel

You Tube

You Tube

[atlrob]

Talk about your "lickers"

VIDEO: Girl licks plane toilet for TikTok 'coronavirus challenge' - Insider

[Serkevan]

Talk about your "lickers"

VIDEO: Girl licks plane toilet for TikTok 'coronavirus challenge' - Insider

I would say that I'm baffled and flabbergasted, but the bar for what I expect of some human specimens is dead and buried several miles under.

[aslyfox]

what I don't understand is the most recent advisory from the CDC

avoid crowds of more than fifty

unless those crowds are at a school or business

Interim Guidance for Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Guidance as of 3/15/2020
. . . Therefore, CDC, in accordance with its guidance for large events and mass gatherings, recommends that for the next 8 weeks, organizers (whether groups or individuals) cancel or postpone in-person events that consist of 50 people or more throughout the United States.

Events of any size should only be continued if they can be carried out with adherence to guidelines for protecting vulnerable populations, hand hygiene, and social distancing. When feasible, organizers could modify events to be virtual.

This recommendation does not apply to the day to day operation of organizations such as schools, institutes of higher learning, or businesses. This recommendation is made in an attempt to reduce introduction of the virus into new communities and to slow the spread of infection in communities already affected by the virus. This recommendation is not intended to supersede the advice of local public health officials.

- Get Your Mass Gatherings or Large Community Events Ready | CDC

[ sarcasm light on ]
everyone knows that a virus is not transmitted at schools, institutes of higher learning or businesses

right [ sarcasm light off ]

what is going on

either there is a danger with groups of people or there isn't

[Serkevan]

either there is a danger with groups of people or there isn't

There is danger, of course, but I guess they cannot "recommend" businesses to effectively shut down. I'm afraid that going into more detail would veer dangerously close to the big P word, so I'll leave it at that

[BigMackCam]

what I don't understand is the most recent advisory from the CDC

avoid crowds of more than fifty

unless those crowds are at a school or business

...

[ sarcasm light on ]
everyone knows that a virus is not transmitted at schools, institutes of higher learning or businesses

right [ sarcasm light off ]

what is going on

either there is a danger with groups of people or there isn't

Common sense prevails in situations like this. I'd take any officially-advised precautions as the bare minimum, and increase precautions to suit your own appetite for risk, being reasonable and community-spirited in the process.

The way I see it - yes, of course there's potential risk in large groups. There's potentially - but not necessarily - less risk in smaller groups (it's all about proximity and contamination). There's even less risk in one-to-one meetings, if distances and hygiene are maintained. No group involvement whatsoever carries the least risk of all. I'm risk averse, especially when my choices can affect my family and others... so I'm choosing to avoid any groups; in fact, any unnecessary contact with anyone, regardless of what advice I'm hearing officially.

As I said - it's just common sense...

[aslyfox]

Common sense prevails in situations like this. . . . As I said - it's just common sense...

common sense says that the recommendation from the CDC should not have excluded schools and businesses

that is the point I was trying to make

[BigMackCam]

common sense says that the recommendation from the CDC should not have excluded schools and businesses

that is the point I was trying to make

Sure, but as I posted in another thread, we can't change what our official channels do or recommend. We also can't know every minute detail behind the undoubtedly well-thought-through decisions they've reached. The logical and most constructive response, in the circumstances, is to assume they're doing things a certain way due to combined and filtered advice from the many qualified experts involved... and then, take our own initiative as mature adults. We don't have to agree with what the official channels are telling us. We might have to comply with them. But most of this - quite appropriately and conveniently - actually falls in our own laps to deal with. It's up to us to act wisely, sensibly and proportionately, based on our own personal risk assessment as grown adults...

[aslyfox]

the latest from my State of Kansas:

Gov. Laura Kelly issued an executive order Monday to immediately ban gatherings of 50 or more people in Kansas churches, restaurants, concerts, recreational facilities and other venues for eight weeks to counter the COVID-19 pandemic.

The statewide mandate aligned with recommendations Sunday by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to avoid large crowds.

“This is an essential step to further encourage social distancing and to stem the spread of the virus.” Kelly said at the Capitol. “When we slow the spread of the virus, we are flattening the curve. The steps we are taking are designed to flatten that curve and keep communities safe.”

The governor said she asked President Donald Trump during a conference call for more flexibility in use of telemedicine and federal waivers to expand reach of health care services to people in Medicaid. She planned to meet with several Kansas business lobby organizations to discuss options for mitigating impact of the unprecedented health challenge.

The addition of three more positive tests for COVID-19 in Johnson County brought the Kansas total to 11 confirmed infections. The three latest cases were linked to an individual who went to a Johnson County social event despite feeling ill and subsequently tested positive.

In Kansas testing, KDHE said, there had been 234 negative tests for a 4.7% rate of infection among those tested so far . . .

Kelly imposes CDC limit of 50 people at gatherings, Kansas documents 11 cases - News - The Topeka Capital-Journal - Topeka, KS

BTW, I do not live in any of the counties where a individual with a positive test has been identified