Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-08-2020, 12:53 PM   #121
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,652
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm always inspired by the Joseph Karsh Churchil portrait....


Where he purportedly had just snatched the cigar out of his mouth. You do what you have to to get what you want.

That one's not about mutual trust... that one's about "What the heck are you doing with my cigar?"
Tom Oldham's Sony portrait winning entry for 2020: Portraiture - 2020 Open competition | World Photography Organisation is in this category of someone effecting a sitter to react and therefore capture character. There will be a trust element in the vast majority of successful portraits, but maybe it doesn't always pay for the photographer to consider the sitter's comfort to elicit a winning portrait...

06-08-2020, 05:11 PM   #122
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm always inspired by the Joseph Karsh Churchil portrait....


Where he purportedly had just snatched the cigar out of his mouth. You do what you have to to get what you want.

That one's not about mutual trust... that one's about "What the heck are you doing with my cigar?"
High risk strategy, to induce emotion, to treat them as cattle rather than collaborators. There's a maxim for portrait photographers - don't touch the talent!

Get the HMUA or the subject themselves to do it.

This is the flipside of photographers 'crossing the line':

Male Models Say Mario Testino and Bruce Weber Sexually Exploited Them - The New York Times
06-08-2020, 05:24 PM   #123
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
If you take each image and put it as a cover for a magazine article, you would be convinced as a reader that the guy is a millionaire or an alcoholic for example. Each photographer captured the personality of the guy based on the story they got about him and based on the 10 minutes discussion with the model during the shot. To me it's fascinating that a person can be transformed radically with right approach, with inspiration and with right communication. Not to mention that the model had the same clothes and the shooting session was in the same location. I don't mind if a model mislead me as long as he/she wants certain results. I'm used to this from nude shooting sessions. Mutual trust comes in time...
Okay, Dan, well, I and everyone else is perfectly capable of taking six very different photos of the same person, with completely different moods and contexts and techniques, that's necessary for a model or actor's portfolio. Even shooting nude or boudoir models, I always suggest, we also need some straight non-genre shots while we have these great surroundings, for your own benefit.

So we don't have to be misled if we're good at what we do. In fact, it's better if we're briefed beforehand, if we're in on the joke. We can in fact improve the subject's idea, whatever it is. That's what we do, right? It's what Karsh did with Churchill, who was being very superficial for that sitting.

The circumstances were it was 1941, wartime, Churchill had addressed the Canadian parliament and this was imposed on him afterwards. He was already annoyed that he hadn't scheduled or even expected this, and was then super annoyed his cigar was taken away. The result is iconic.

I can suggest 'Master of Photography', a European TV series which is kind of MasterChef for togs, with Oliviero Toscani as one of the judges. You can see six or so photographers take portraits of the same subject in an episode, with very different outcomes. That's harder, because they don't have the specific brief to guide them, yet they have to beat the other photographers with their result. The contestants make mistakes, but that's all the better for us - we can learn from those just as much as their successes. Perhaps more.

Last edited by clackers; 06-08-2020 at 05:30 PM.
06-08-2020, 05:42 PM   #124
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
Tom Oldham's Sony portrait winning entry for 2020: Portraiture - 2020 Open competition | World Photography Organisation is in this category of someone effecting a sitter to react and therefore capture character. There will be a trust element in the vast majority of successful portraits, but maybe it doesn't always pay for the photographer to consider the sitter's comfort to elicit a winning portrait...
@Robgski ... what do you make of the girl wearing a ferret's head as one of the entries?

06-08-2020, 06:12 PM - 2 Likes   #125
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
I took a class in shooting nudes once from Annie Sprinkle.
Annie Sprinkle - Wikipedia

Her biggest piece of advice after stressing to have the ultimate respect for your models was "If you ever have chance to do it with an acrobat, go for it."
06-08-2020, 10:57 PM - 2 Likes   #126
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I took a class in shooting nudes once from Annie Sprinkle.
Annie Sprinkle - Wikipedia

Her biggest piece of advice after stressing to have the ultimate respect for your models was "If you ever have chance to do it with an acrobat, go for it."
There's a Seinfeld episode where he goes out with someone without many redeeming features except for that ... she's a very flexible Romanian gymnast, and Kramer urges him: "Jerry, you stand on the threshold to the magical world of sensual delights that most men dare not dream of."
06-09-2020, 01:04 AM   #127
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,652
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I took a class in shooting nudes once from Annie Sprinkle.
Annie Sprinkle - Wikipedia

Her biggest piece of advice after stressing to have the ultimate respect for your models was "If you ever have chance to do it with an acrobat, go for it."
I know I'd not want to do that. For years I attended Life Drawing and portrait sessions where we hired a model and a group of us drew he/she for a couple of hours. The model soon become just a form. However, the class was open to drop-in attendees. It became obvious when someone turned up for not altogether the right reason. As I was normally the only male in the class it was left up to me to understand whether we'd read the visitors motifs. Occasionally, I'd host a portrait (only) drawing session at home, where my wife and friends would sit. Music. Food. No tension. Great learning experience.

The human form, without the restrictions of clothing, is challenging on many levels. Questions, inevitably, get asked by the viewer about why it was been shot or painted. That aside, a model in context, exploring their form, capturing character, handling the lighting/paint etc is/would be a big challenge.

When I've seen the "enthusiasm" at photo shows of men jostling for position to take a snap of a clothed professional model on stage, I can only imagine the level of suspicion involved in a nude photography shoot that personally I would struggle with. Very sad, as the nude model, in both art and photography, has long and valued history and is great training for the eye.

06-09-2020, 01:59 AM   #128
Veteran Member
Dan Rentea's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 1,716
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Okay, Dan, well, I and everyone else is perfectly capable of taking six very different photos of the same person, with completely different moods and contexts and techniques, that's necessary for a model or actor's portfolio. Even shooting nude or boudoir models, I always suggest, we also need some straight non-genre shots while we have these great surroundings, for your own benefit.

So we don't have to be misled if we're good at what we do. In fact, it's better if we're briefed beforehand, if we're in on the joke. We can in fact improve the subject's idea, whatever it is. That's what we do, right? It's what Karsh did with Churchill, who was being very superficial for that sitting.

The circumstances were it was 1941, wartime, Churchill had addressed the Canadian parliament and this was imposed on him afterwards. He was already annoyed that he hadn't scheduled or even expected this, and was then super annoyed his cigar was taken away. The result is iconic.

I can suggest 'Master of Photography', a European TV series which is kind of MasterChef for togs, with Oliviero Toscani as one of the judges. You can see six or so photographers take portraits of the same subject in an episode, with very different outcomes. That's harder, because they don't have the specific brief to guide them, yet they have to beat the other photographers with their result. The contestants make mistakes, but that's all the better for us - we can learn from those just as much as their successes. Perhaps more.
Each with his own approach, technique... I loved the experiment from the video, I loved the results, it improved a lot my approach to clients and models and it helped me to work on the story shared to me by the model/client. That's it. I'm not going after a debate about right or wrong approach. Models are not always 100% honest and not because they don't think that the photographer it's not capable of taking very good images. On the contrary. Some people are introvert for example and hide themself behind a story that make them feel more comfortable. Or they simply think they are not up to the photographer standards... It's common among young and inexperienced models that work for the first time with a professional team (photographer, hair stylist, make-up artist, etc.). My job is not to analyze if the person I'm going to photograph is telling me the truth about who he/she is. My job is to get the best result based on the story he/she is telling me, based on the results he/she wants and based on the communication during the shooting session.

You, me and lots of other photographers can take 6 different images of the same person, but the results won't be quite the same or it will take a lot more work to do it because you have to train your brain to ignore the fact the the person standing in front of you is not a millionaire, is not an alcoholic, is not a celebrity, etc. It's inevitable. The results will be totally different right from beginning if you know that the guy in front of you is actually a real millionaire, even if he looks like a shy one. And that's why in the video I posted those 10 minutes were enough to get powerful images of the same person, even with the model wearing the same clothes in all 6 shooting sessions.
06-09-2020, 04:10 AM   #129
Pentaxian
ZombieArmy's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,209
I prefer portraits of the fuzzier variety

06-09-2020, 04:07 PM   #130
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
My job is not to analyze if the person I'm going to photograph is telling me the truth about who he/she is.
I think it is, Dan.

I think we need to see through the facade and get to the real subject. In that video, each time the wrong person was driving the session and its art (it should be the photographer), and it was not based on truth, it was like the publicity shots for six fictional characters in a movie.

The 'customer' or friend or family member or whoever isn't always right.

If you sense there's a lack of authenticity that everyone looking at the photo will be aware of, what you do is to take some safety shots that pander to their initial idea, their ego, so you can say you've done what's in the brief, then also take some shots that you and the rest of the world will prefer.

Then let them make the final choice from the shots taken in the session. If they still choose the artificial ones ... well, you tried, but it's their prerogative.

BTW, it's experienced models who I find harder to get genuine portraits from. They tend to go through their repertoire of professional poses and expressions, it can take a while of rapport to get them to drop their guard and not be 'a job', but themselves.

Last edited by clackers; 06-09-2020 at 04:49 PM.
06-09-2020, 04:12 PM   #131
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
I prefer portraits of the fuzzier variety

The technical principles are the same as portraiture, ZombieArmy. You're still looking for subject isolation, for a clean background, for a catchlight in the eyes, for a 3D look.

I try to shoot wildlife as if they're people portraits. Not always possible, doesn't always work, but sometimes it does:

06-10-2020, 01:20 AM   #132
Veteran Member
Dan Rentea's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 1,716
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I think it is, Dan.
I'm not a psychologist.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I think we need to see through the facade and get to the real subject. In that video, each time the wrong person was driving the session and its art (it should be the photographer), and it was not based on truth, it was like the publicity shots for six fictional characters in a movie.
Again, psychologists need quite a lot of sessions to go behind the facade you mentioned. I don't have the time or expertize to start a profile analysis of the person I'm going to photograph. I try to take a portrait as authentic as I can based on the story she/he delivers. If a young woman comes at a short meeting and tells me something like "Hello, my name is Diana. You were recommended to me by a friend. I would like you to take some portraits of me for a project of mine." And then she tells you she is a painter so you have to reveal that she is a painter in the images you're going to take, in your studio. She tells you that the portraits have to be classic portraits and environmental also and she can bring some props that can help for the environmental portraits. This is what you get from her at the first meeting where you also set a date for the shooting session. What you do, you start searching on internet if she told you the truth or not about who she is? I don't think so. When the shooting session comes you just try and make her/him relaxed and comfortable so that you can get an authentic look from her/him.

Or do you think that we are like priests and the persons we're going to photograph should tell us the truth about them, with juicy details included, so that we can get authentic portraits of who they really are? We try to capture authenticity based on the story we get from the person who wants to be photographed by us.

In the video all photographers got authentic portraits of the person they photographed based on what they knew about him. That's the beauty of the video. How often do you shoot corporate portraits? I shoot quite a few and often I don't have more than 15 minutes for each member of the executive board to photograph. I know about them what the HR Manager tells me and what I can find from them during the 10-15 minutes shooting session. That's why I go to their headquarter an hour earlier to set the light and get everything ready because I know that I have 10-15 minutes to get the shot for each of them. I make sure the HR manager stays with me and I ask her if the person I'm going to photograph has kids or a dog so that I can start making a conversation based on things I know they love.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
The 'customer' or friend or family member or whoever isn't always right.
Most of the time they aren't right. But when I say they aren't right I'm talking about a pose she think it makes her look good, or about a look that she thinks it makes her beautiful and so on.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
If you sense there's a lack of authenticity that everyone looking at the photo will be aware of, what you do is to take some safety shots that pander to their initial idea, their ego, so you can say you've done what's in the brief, then also take some shots that you and the rest of the world will prefer.
If you got the time and if the model is open to the idea, then yes, it's nice to experiment and put into practice some spontaneous ideas. In the video I posted I haven't seen a single image with lack of autenticity, on the contrary. From the posing to the eyes expression all images captured authenticity based on what each photographer knew about the person they photographed. To me it's an amazing achievement in 10 minutes and the fact that the model had the same clothings for each shooting session makes those portraits even more beautiful to me.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Then let them make the final choice from the shots taken in the session. If they still choose the artificial ones ... well, you tried, but it's their prerogative.
I always shoot thetered so with few exceptions, I let the model to choose 3-5 images she like most and I choose around 5 on my own and I deliver both of our choices.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
BTW, it's experienced models who I find harder to get genuine portraits from. They tend to go through their repertoire of professional poses and expressions, it can take a while of rapport to get them to drop their guard and not be 'a job', but themselves.
That's why I saw that professional models work only with certain photographers for personal projects. That's why I follow Giampaolo Sgura for example. He seems that he is one of the photographers that capture the personality of the international models he work with. Irina Shayk and a few other international models seems to love working with him for both personal and professional projects.
06-10-2020, 02:22 AM   #133
Pentaxian
swanlefitte's Avatar

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Minneapolis
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,068
I think Vinci shot Mona with a 50mm at f/5.6. Picasso often used backdrops for his cubist portraits. The presidents in the White House portraits seem to favor being painted at 35mm f/8. Van Gogh loved the swirly bokeh. Hopper liked a 200mm around f/5.6-8. I think it is more telling how painters approach portraiture given they even control the impossible. They never use f/1.4, if they want isolation they use a backdrop. They much prefer lighting to obscure features. Maybe that is the takeaway. Bokeh is the microwave where you cook best with light and placement.
06-10-2020, 05:15 PM - 1 Like   #134
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
Otis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis FanOtis Fan
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 16,394
QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I don't have the time or expertize to start a profile analysis of the person I'm going to photograph.
You're just not trying, Dan. It doesn't take long, it's immediate. I've shot both situations where it's just that subject for five or ten minutes by myself, and worse, where it's a group of photographers and in each location I've got two minutes before handing over to someone else.

If for example, you can see both sets of teeth in the smile, and their eyes are wide open, they're forcing it. It's better to actually cancel that shot and 'reset'. Get them to do something else, make an excuse to physically change what they're doing, like sit instead of stand, or stand instead of sit, or go over the other side of the room to get a prop, or whatever, and try again.

You don't need to hire researchers beforehand, you just 'read the person' as if it was a social interaction, and adjust from there.

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
That's why I saw that professional models work only with certain photographers for personal projects. That's why I follow Giampaolo Sgura for example. He seems that he is one of the photographers that capture the personality of the international models he work with. Irina Shayk and a few other international models seems to love working with him for both personal and professional projects.
Apparently Kate Moss was *adored* by photographers for personal projects. She could do anything - any look, any concept. High art or brutal honesty, as soon as she has worked out the tog's original idea, she immerses herself in 'the shot' and improves it beyond the original expectation. A muse, a gift.

Last edited by clackers; 06-10-2020 at 08:21 PM.
06-11-2020, 01:09 PM   #135
Veteran Member
Dan Rentea's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Bucharest
Posts: 1,716
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
You're just not trying, Dan. It doesn't take long, it's immediate. I've shot both situations where it's just that subject for five or ten minutes by myself, and worse, where it's a group of photographers and in each location I've got two minutes before handing over to someone else.

If for example, you can see both sets of teeth in the smile, and their eyes are wide open, they're forcing it. It's better to actually cancel that shot and 'reset'. Get them to do something else, make an excuse to physically change what they're doing, like sit instead of stand, or stand instead of sit, or go over the other side of the room to get a prop, or whatever, and try again.

You don't need to hire researchers beforehand, you just 'read the person' as if it was a social interaction, and adjust from there.
What I'm not trying? To be more precise, what's to try? I'm having as much fun as I can while trying to get the attitude and the expression I want from the models I work with. If a model tells me she's a painter or an architect I'm not starting to do police work with her to find out if she's telling me the truth or not.

I think we are not talking about same thing here.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
85mm, background, cigar, context, features, filters, focus, image, jun, length, lens, meters, mm, nose, people, photograph, photography, picture, pm, portrait, portraits, portraiture, post, question, shots
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Portraiture mbieser Monthly Photo Contests 6 11-13-2019 03:03 PM
Sigma 35 1.4 Art, Sigma 17-50 for portraiture gatorguy Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 10 02-12-2019 07:57 PM
Expired Theme Theme: Contest #42, February, 2010 (Black-and-White Portraiture) Adam Monthly Photo Contests 8 02-26-2010 12:50 PM
Portraiture Experiment (SMC-M 50/1.4) Dubesor Post Your Photos! 6 09-17-2008 01:04 AM
Sibling Portraiture... Tokyo Style?! codiac2600 Post Your Photos! 16 04-30-2008 04:31 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:37 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top