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06-25-2020, 09:15 PM - 5 Likes   #1
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At Long Last...Sunny 16

The Pentax Forums has a dedicated group of members that swear by the Sunny 16 method of estimating exposure. Often enough the topic comes up in the context of meterless film cameras, but sometimes in regards to well-metered and highly automated digital cameras, particular if adapted lenses are in the mix. The common mantra might be "Sunny 16 is all I need".

For those that are still reading, there might be some question regarding the "Sunny 16" rule and how it is used. The basic rule goes something like this:

Sunny 16 Rule:
Assuming bright midday light, shutter speed at f/16 aperture will be 1 over the ISO sensitivity/film speed.
Example:
At ISO 100, the shutter speed for f/16 would be 1/100s or whatever is closest. At f/11, the shutter would be 1/200s and so on.

There is a similar rule for photographing the face of the moon. It is called the "Lunny 11" (Looney 11?) rule and is based on the average albedo of the lunar surface in full sunlight. Of course, it is always in full sunlight. That last brings us to underpinnings of why sunny 16 works.
Sunny 16 is just a different way of saying that midday light is about LV 15*
As such, there are extensions to Sunny 16 for any number of lighting situations where a particular LV is more or less characteristic. A good example of how far this can be taken might be Fred Parker's "Ultimate Exposure Calculator" Web page (LINK).

About now, the more analytical reader will be thinking that Sunny 16 sounds hokey. How can a simply calculation work everywhere? The short answer is that it doesn't. Sunny 16 in its basic form only works in the lower-to-middle latitudes. When the subject comes up here on Pentax Forums, it is not unusual for folk that live in my region to joke that Sunny 11 is the best we usually manage with Sunny 8 being more common. Part of the reason is latitude and another part is a tendency to have high clouds even when the day is bright.

With that in mind, it occurred to me that it was summer solstice this last Saturday, June 20. The day was cloudless and I had enough time before solar noon to see if Sunny 16 would work at least once in the year. Good fortune was on my side as I took a reading of a slab of gray concrete at high noon and had it come in exactly at Sunny 16!

Yay! It works!


Steve

* LV (Light Value) is simply EV for ISO 100


Last edited by stevebrot; 06-25-2020 at 10:00 PM.
06-25-2020, 09:23 PM   #2
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Growing up I was taught moon rule was f8 at 1/iso which in the film era was probably acceptably close given exposure latitude.
06-26-2020, 12:33 AM - 1 Like   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
With that in mind, it occurred to me that it was summer solstice this last Saturday, June 20. The day was cloudless and I had enough time before solar noon to see if Sunny 16 would work at least once in the year. Good fortune was on my side as I took a reading of a slab of gray concrete at high noon and had it come in exactly at Sunny 16!

Great post, and good to see Sunny 16 doing its thing under test conditions.

My standard response when people say that Sunny 16 can't possibly work is to remind them that one full stop of exposure is a doubling or halving of the light. And if direct noon sunshine ever doubled or halved in intensity, the world would be in real trouble because it would mean that the Sun itself had become dangerously unstable.

I probably take 90% of my photos using Sunny 16, with the incident meter only coming out when I'm really uncertain. In fact, looking back through this year's snaps so far, I haven't needed to meter a shot since March.
06-26-2020, 05:12 AM - 5 Likes   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Growing up I was taught moon rule was f8 at 1/iso which in the film era was probably acceptably close given exposure latitude.
Indeed!

And yet the moon is in full sunlight so it should be "correctly" exposed with sunny f/16, too. The material of the moon's surface is very dark (about 1/2 stop darker than middle gray) but the human eye is fooled by the dark moon being the brightest thing in the night sky.


Here's a NASA photo taken from space with both the moon and earth, both in full sun, both with the same exposure, and showing the true darkness of the moon surface:



06-26-2020, 05:56 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
And yet the moon is in full sunlight so it should be "correctly" exposed with sunny f/16, too. The material of the moon's surface is very dark (about 1/2 stop darker than middle gray) but the human eye is fooled by the dark moon being the brightest thing in the night sky.

Cool photo. I guess if you were taking photos standing on the surface of the moon in lunar daylight you might need something more like Sunny f/22? Presumably with no atmosphere in the way, direct sunlight on the moon is brighter than here on earth so Sunny 16 would be overexposed even though the surface material is darker than mid-grey. I wonder what standard exposure the Apollo astronauts used? Pretty sure those Hasselblads didn't have built in meters.
06-26-2020, 06:32 AM - 1 Like   #6
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Remember being taught both Sunny 16 and Looney 11 plus to make variance for geographical location.
Going to college right on the coast ours was about f11 or f8 due to atmospheric haze and high clouds too.
One fo my favorite exercises in both beginning and journalistic photography classes was "Get the Shot."
No metering, no visual focusing (use hyper focal scale), no viewfinder, and no forward facing shots with camera held in the area between shoulders and top of head.
Decided to go back to that a bit this summer and sure enough, living in the Eastern Sierras, Sunny 16 has been right on.

PS.
I was wondering about proposing "Get the Shot" as a technic challenge here on the forums as a way to help new digital users learn to see how their camera sees.
06-26-2020, 09:51 AM   #7
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Yeah, Sunny 16 doesn't work.

Or maybe I'm doing it wrong. Ok, probably I'm doing it wrong.

I've tried this before, and I've always come out way underexposed. So I tried today (prompted by this thread) at very nearly high noon, unfiltered bright sun, latitude 42N, and it came out a full 2 stops underexposed. ISO 100, 1/125, f/8 was about right.

Is there some kind of adjustment for crop factor? (Please don't throw things, I had to ask.)

I'm using a small prime (1:1.4/50) so I doubt too much glass is the issue. Thoughts?

06-26-2020, 10:25 AM - 2 Likes   #8
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I also learnt about the f/16 rule during the film era. In my recent digital experience f/11 works better. Slight underexposure on transparency film was is a good thing, it gave gives you more saturated colors.

I have found that sunny f/11 works well for street photography (weather permitting of course). Shadow detail just detracts from the picture, let them go dark.



QuoteOriginally posted by Dartmoor Dave Quote
I wonder what standard exposure the Apollo astronauts used? Pretty sure those Hasselblads didn't have built in meters.
Useless factoid: none of the Apollo Hasselblads came back. They were considered expendable and left on the moon. Only the backs with exposed film were taken back. I suppose the space and weight was taken up by moon rocks on the return journey.
06-26-2020, 12:50 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Sunny 16 Rule:
Assuming bright midday light, shutter speed at f/16 aperture will be 1 over the ISO sensitivity/film speed.
Example:
At ISO 100, the shutter speed for f/16 would be 1/100s or whatever is closest. At f/11, the shutter would be 1/200s and so on.

When the subject comes up here on Pentax Forums, it is not unusual for folk that live in my region to joke that Sunny 11 is the best we usually manage with Sunny 8 being more common. Part of the reason is latitude and another part is a tendency to have high clouds even when the day is bright.
Although the Sunny 16 rule starts with a lighting condition of Sunny=f/16 @ 1/ISO", I was taught three other conditions which included:
b) Hazy Sun=f/11 @ 1/ISO"
c) Bright Clouds=f/8 @ 1/ISO"
d) Open Shade on a Sunny Day=f/5.6 @ 1/ISO"

So although latitude and the sunlight going thru more atmosphere could be a factor, if there are high clouds, that will lower the light by 1-2 EVs to the hazy sun or bright clouds condition.

My only personal annoyance with the Sunny 16 rule is that I generally don't shoot at f/16 and consider f/8 as my default. Then I have to go thru some mental work of translating f/16 @ 1/ISO" to f/8 @ 1/ISO(4). Example: Sunny and ISO 100? Then f/16 @ 1/100" or f/8 @ 1/400".

Maybe I should call it the Sunny 8 ISO x4 rule? Or use my light meter rule
06-26-2020, 01:19 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Or use my light meter rule
The Green Button rules.

But why oh why, Pentax engineers, will you not let me map ISO to the rear control dial in M mode?!? Or allow me to use the Green Button to auto-set ISO instead of shutter speed!?!?

Anybody have their phone number?
06-26-2020, 01:28 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sir Nameless Quote

I've tried this before, and I've always come out way underexposed.

Is there some kind of adjustment for crop factor? (Please don't throw things, I had to ask.)

I'm using a small prime (1:1.4/50) so I doubt too much glass is the issue. Thoughts?
No there is no crop factor adjustment. I just tested my 50mm f/1.4 on both a FF and an APS-C DSLR and they gave me identical readings.
Not sure why it doesn't work for you assuming it was a full sun condition.

Although the camera electronics indicates a given shutter speed, due to the mechanical nature of focal plane shutters, there is a margin of error. With film cameras the best have an accuracy of +/- 1/6 EV.
+/- 1/3 EV is still considered acceptable. Most errors occur at 1/250" or faster and I've seen errors of 1-2 EVs at the faster shutter speeds.

The aperture is usually the second culprit, but not in your scenario because you have an underexposure issue. A 50mm f/1.4 has larger aperture blades than an f/2 and is therefore more likely to stick or not stop down fast enough. And although not all lens have the same transmission values, unless you were using a filter that reduced the light by 2EV then this is probably not the cause.

The last and least likely cause is the ISO. Is your EV compensation set to 0.0? If it was accidentally set to -2.0EV, that would explain the anomaly.

One thing I wish the metadata would provide would be both the set exposure values and the actual values. In other words, if I shot at f/8 @ 1/1000", I'd want the meta data to confirm that but also let me know if my f/8 is really giving me a T9. And is my shutter speed really .001 seconds or is it .0016?
06-26-2020, 02:13 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sir Nameless Quote
But why oh why, Pentax engineers, will you not let me map ISO to the rear control dial in M mode?!? Or allow me to use the Green Button to auto-set ISO instead of shutter speed!?!?
It's not hard to find the ISO button next to the shutter button, at least on my K-5, but maybe on the body you're using it isn't so easy.

Pentax digital cameras are all pretty ISO invariant so if you're setting exposure to something that you can hand hold without motion blur, and subject motion is constrained the way you want, with help of the proper f-stop the proper "ISO" can be found in post. Basically as long as you can see much of anything in the final image you can probably boost relative brightness in post processing to arrive at a usable image. That's all the camera is doing anyway.
_______

About Sunny 16, in my own experience, I try to use it to get the camera settings right so that before I lift it to my eye I'm in the ballpark. I find that I'm often off a bit up to a couple of stops. More practice would help. This is another thing where shooting with a film camera, especially an older one and not an LX or an F100 or some other "best of breed" example helps because the user is forced to get better or else things won't turn out well.
06-26-2020, 02:25 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sir Nameless Quote
Yeah, Sunny 16 doesn't work.

Or maybe I'm doing it wrong. Ok, probably I'm doing it wrong.

I've tried this before, and I've always come out way underexposed. So I tried today (prompted by this thread) at very nearly high noon, unfiltered bright sun, latitude 42N, and it came out a full 2 stops underexposed. ISO 100, 1/125, f/8 was about right.

Is there some kind of adjustment for crop factor? (Please don't throw things, I had to ask.)

I'm using a small prime (1:1.4/50) so I doubt too much glass is the issue. Thoughts?
It works near enough as a starting point for me. But the histogram digital preview has the final say
I think of my shadow as an exposure meter.
I tend to reverse things a bit in practise and f4 1/1600 is a good starting point to remember if you tend to use your lenses more open.
There is a need to underexpose from it a bit to keep detail in bright backgrounds and clouds from clipping.
06-26-2020, 03:50 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
So although latitude and the sunlight going thru more atmosphere could be a factor,
Oh, yeah...I am at 45°38′N and even at solstice, getting a true sunny 16 can be a stretch if there is any haze at all. (I am less than 100 miles from the sea and we get marine influence.


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06-26-2020, 03:59 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
b) Hazy Sun=f/11 @ 1/ISO"
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Oh, yeah...I am at 45°38′N and even at solstice, getting a true sunny 16 can be a stretch if there is any haze at all. (I am less than 100 miles from the sea and we get marine influence.
Yes, but I'm wondering to what degree (no pun intended) is it the haze which normally would reduce 1 EV vs. the latitude?
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