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11-29-2020, 07:46 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
Would it be more R&D per camera than for a new DSLR? I'm not saying they spend nothing on RND, I don't think I ever implied that. What you implied is a little absurd that they spend so much on RND that operations cost cut by removing the mirror and other components would take an eternity to be worth it financially.

The difficulty that Canon and Nikon are running into are not because of RND, the difficulty is the stagnating market and people not flocking to the new systems like they thought. Not selling things is what invalidates RND budget.'

I'd like to ask: Do you think Canon and Nikon as companies are just plain stupid? Do you think they'd both put "so much" into RND into an already slowing market if there wasn't some other benefit to go with it?



You can use a little deductive reasoning here. How much money is in the ILC market? Spoiler alert, not a whole lot. You can't spend more RND budget than you could reasonably recover, you're not going to suddenly create a new market because you made a mirrorless lol.
I've lost track of how this discussion even started, and since it's starting to feel more like an argument now, I'll step out. You and I get on quite well in the forums, and I'd rather not argue...

11-29-2020, 07:48 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
The difficulty that Canon and Nikon are running into are not because of RND, the difficulty is the stagnating market and people not flocking to the new systems like they thought.
2020 is a different year to any in recent times.Nikon dont seem to be doing too well but their projections are positive.

Canon are selling their new bodies very well,the wait time is fairly lengthy.Some ordered in July and dont have their cameras yet.

All manufacturers have to adjust,the world economy isnt normal and probably wont be for a while yet.
11-29-2020, 07:49 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I've lost track of how this discussion even started, and since it's starting to feel more like an argument now, I'll step out. You and I get on quite well in the forums, and I'd rather not argue...
Arguments don't have to end with a trip to the hospital every time you know

I just didn't know if my point was getting across properly.
11-29-2020, 07:50 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Not at all,just trying to give you the accurate information.
By deliberately misconstruing what I wrote? You quoted the camera brands I said I would like to own and pointed out they have AF! Where did I say they don't? And if I believed that, why would I like to own the damn things! You also pointed out that all brands can hold their own! Where did I say they can't? Quite the contrary, I said Pentax can hold its own with them! My entire post was general and designed to say Pentax was ok and you have chosen to dissect it and quote me in an attempt to suggest I had said something which appears nowhere in my posts! If this is you not arguing then god help us when you do.

11-29-2020, 07:51 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
2020 is a different year to any in recent times.Nikon dont seem to be doing too well but their projections are positive.
I'd like to point out that Nikon's economic issues definitely go back before their mirrorless endeavor in general. In fact I think if they do go into the green again at some point it'll only prove my point that the production costs are a big reason why a company would want to take the leap to a milc format. The margins are without a doubt higher on a mirrorless camera when you look at production alone.
11-29-2020, 07:59 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
Do you think Canon and Nikon as companies are just plain stupid?
They could have been smarter, the R&D $ outlay was necessary because $ony was stealing their users.Thats been turned around,mostly by Canon.Both didnt act early enough(imo).However,now they both have their acts in shape and the consumer is the winner.Very advanced devices that can do lots.

QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
some other benefit to go with it
Winning back their former users is their goal but retaining their existing users is first base.
11-29-2020, 08:20 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
Would it be more R&D per [mirrorless] camera than for a new DSLR?
All tech R&D costs these days are high, but I agree that those for a DSLM [mirrorless*] should be significantly less than for a DSLR. Not much difference in the body shell, but while a DSLR needs a mirror mechanism and pentaprism (into which Pentax say they have invested a lot for the K3iii), unless I'm mistaken the only extra hardware the DSLM needs is a viewfinder screen. And such screens, like sensors and camera back displays, are surely off-the-shelf items by now. A camera maker does not need to R&D sensors or screens themselves, Pentax doesn't and many of the other brands (except Sony and Panasonic?) also subcontract them. The rest is software, and you need that for any type of camera.

As for the lenses, could not a stop-gap** be to extend the lens barrel to make up for the lesser flange distance? Like an adaptor but part of the lens, and it would hardly make a difference with long focal length lenses as they are so big anyway.

* I wish we could call them something other than "mirrorless". How long did it take to stop calling cars "horseless carriages"? Wikipedia suggests EVIL (Electronic viewfinder, interchangeable lens) but much as I am not attracted by them, I would not go that far DSLM sounds good to me.

** Literally
11-29-2020, 10:16 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
surfAr...roh...your mileage may vary!

I have to use it with the battery grip which is the least uncomfortable of the 4 configurations.The positive of that is I put the big battery in and it lasts a looooong time.Its an excellent camera apart from the ergos.ive owned towards 100 in my life.Its the only one i havent liked the feel of.

So I;m looking forward to K3x3,hoping it feels good.
I gave up on battery grips back when I was a Canon Rebel user - I didn't like the addition to size even then.
I carry a couple of extra batteries in my bag, but hardly ever need them.

11-29-2020, 10:19 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
I wish we could call them something other than "mirrorless". How long did it take to stop calling cars "horseless carriages"? Wikipedia suggests EVIL (Electronic viewfinder, interchangeable lens) but much as I am not attracted by them, I would not go that far DSLM sounds good to me.
I use a technically correct acronym - "MILC" ...... "Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera"
11-29-2020, 10:22 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Canon are selling their new bodies very well,the wait time is fairly lengthy.Some ordered in July and dont have their cameras yet.

All manufacturers have to adjust,the world economy isnt normal and probably wont be for a while yet.
Back in 'normal' times, Nikon had long waits for the D850, and it was viewed as a positive thing - showing how popular the camera was.
11-29-2020, 12:58 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I gave up on battery grips back when I was a Canon Rebel user - I didn't like the addition to size even then.
I carry a couple of extra batteries in my bag, but hardly ever need them.
I have fairly large hands, so the battery grip on my K-5 really helps its handling for me--though I do agree that the extra weight isn't entirely welcome. The extra size also makes the overall camera assembly a bit intimidating for little kids who are used to having their pictures taken with smartphones.
11-29-2020, 01:03 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I didn't like the addition to size
Yes,I can understand that.For me the size isnt here nor there.It will be a joyous day when i sell the KP!
11-29-2020, 01:33 PM - 2 Likes   #103
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Obviously it takes a lot of R and D to come up with an improved MILC. The thing is that there is a lot of tech involved with faster frame rates, more PDAF points on the sensor, 4K video from a tiny box (and the heating issues that could come from it), better EVFs with less lag, etc. If all that it really entailed was taking an existing SLR and then leaving off the mirror and running the thing in live view and maybe tacking on an EVF, that might be more correct, but that isn't what brands are doing.

And then, regardless of what SLR specs are, there is a need to one up the last generation of MILCs. So what will the A9 III offer? 30 fps at 30 megapixels? 6K video. 5000 auto focus points? It's hard to say, but nothing stays static and that means quite a bit of R and D investment.
11-30-2020, 06:31 AM - 1 Like   #104
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As for EVFs, the R&D pertaining to camera manufacturers is not to develop them but how to best feed them. A 120Hz refresh rate is of no use if the camera is only capable of providing 15 images per second to the EVF.
11-30-2020, 06:36 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think most other brands to this point have significantly better auto focus than Pentax whether you are talking about SLRs or MILCs.
I should have been clearer : Sony has better AF tracking than Pentax. Pentax's single point AF-S with the newer lenses is on par with what I've seen from others. The DFA* 85mm can focus so fast it was hard to measure.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
How much faster is a A7C than a Nikon D780?
No idea.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm sure it has more auto focus points, but once you get to a certain point those aren't as important as how the camera uses them.
It has many hundreds of points. The neat thing is having phase AF built on the sensor, so the camera can use that plus contrast AF.

When I get back on the K-1 (or K-3) I realize that there is a "better" way to use each camera. With the K-3, I use single point select AF-S. With the K-1, except when I need to nail focus on a small object, I use Select 9 points AF-S. On the A7C, I activate eye AF (which overrides anything else), zone (about a third of the screen) or wide (full screen) with AF-C, and I have a toggle to switch to point AF when I don't like the selection. Still learning the ropes on the Sony, but this seems to work well for me. Of course, there's also touch AF which lets me override anything by pressing the screen.

One thing I don't understand is the lack of a MF switch. Yesterday I was doing close-ups with the K-1, and I frequently toggled between AF and MF. Also, Sony's lenses can offer the equivalent to quick-shift, but it needs to be activated, and is incompatible with AF-C. Since it's focus by wire, there is no reason why it wouldn't be always active by default.
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