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11-27-2020, 07:25 PM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by kokol Quote
For what it's worth, I shoot both with a K-5IIs and an A6000, which I bought for my underwater photography needs (or rather, wants!).

I really really wanted to like the A6000, but at the end of the day, shooting with it is just a mediocre experience. The menus are incredibly frustrating to use, the EVF is a disappointment, the compactness is offset by the need to have a decent lens (the compact kit lens 16-50 is awful. Meanwhile, the 90mm macro is truly outstanding, but then the whole setup becomes awkward to use), ergonomics are far off from Pentax, and the sensor isn't as good as the K-5IIs despite both cameras having the same rating on DXOMark. I hear that Fujifilm is making great cameras that are fun to use. The A6000 certainly isn't one.

It is difficult to communicate on the shooting experience, which is what Pentax is trying to do, but I wholeheartedly support Pentax's approach and will buy a K-3 III as soon as available.

Other than that the article is rather poor: overheating is not a real problem, a new lens collection is needed for any new system anyway, and I wouldn't want to edit my pictures on the camera. The EVF remains as the only valid point.
My experience with the A6000 was almost identical to yours, although mine overheated and shut down taking stills in the summer, something I never worried about with my Pentax. I fought to take pictures with my A6000, but my Pentax was always my partner in the process.

11-27-2020, 08:05 PM - 2 Likes   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
The article and comments section are a mirror of multiple and combined threads here (and, I'm sure, every other photography forum). The author and (especially) his respondents are confusing their own opinions and preferences for statements of fact, when a large dose of subjectivity means the facts are different for each of us. We don't need folks telling us mirrorless is better, just as we don't need to tell them we think DSLRs are better (such discussions, I'm afraid, usually read as if they're motivated by insecurity or confirmation bias, even if the intent is sincere). All we need do is find out which we prefer and shoot with that.
Amen, Mike!!
11-27-2020, 08:13 PM   #33
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If your personal preference is OVF then be thankful that Pentax is committed to keep making the best for the money, weather resistant, fit your hand like a glove DSLRs around.
11-28-2020, 02:22 AM - 3 Likes   #34
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There are technical merits to both MILCs and DSLRs, but in my opinion when people act like fanboys and pretend to have an armchair debate it feels like a waste of time when this is a creative process. Pick the right tool for your expression and go with that. If you choose to shoot good video, MILCs are more competitive at the moment. If you feel that pixels cannot replicate the sense of connection an OVF gives you, stick with OVF. Why is it so hard for the author, and for those in the forums and comment sections of these websites to believe that it's entirely possible to appreciate both types of shooting experiences? Seems like much ado about nothing to me.

11-28-2020, 03:06 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
The article and comments section are a mirror of multiple and combined threads here (and, I'm sure, every other photography forum). The author and (especially) his respondents are confusing their own opinions and preferences for statements of fact, when a large dose of subjectivity means the facts are different for each of us. We don't need folks telling us mirrorless is better, just as we don't need to tell them we think DSLRs are better (such discussions, I'm afraid, usually read as if they're motivated by insecurity or confirmation bias, even if the intent is sincere). All we need do is find out which we prefer and shoot with that.
I'm telling you, DSLR's are better 😎😛 I found the article interesting. Like you say he is very much in the present, but he did also say he believes Mirrorless is the future, once they get their act together, its just not there yet! It was a bit of a contractual obligation piece and didn't say a great deal, but it was OK.
11-28-2020, 03:37 AM - 1 Like   #36
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There is no holy grail and there never will be. Horses for courses.

I use both, each has it's proc and cons, and most importantly, I enjoy using them.
11-28-2020, 04:13 AM - 2 Likes   #37
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I don't think the article is that great, but I would make a few observations.

1. EVFs and OVFs are about personal preference. As such it is probably relatively futile to argue about them.

2. MILCs are significantly better for video. You can make SLRs work for video, but it won't ever be as easy as with an MILC.

3. From a still photography standpoint, MILC and SLRs are more similar than they are different. Of course they differ in frame rate and number of auto focus points, but for the majority of functions, they are going to take similar photos -- mostly dependent on the skill of the photographer. We've seen this a lot where someone leaves Pentax to shoot with Sony or Fuji and their photos look basically the same.

4. One of the big benefits of EVFs is manual focusing helps. This is lost on the majority of photographers (including me). I don't own any manual focus lenses, nor do the majority of modern photographers.

5. The lens improvements with MILCs are overstated. They are smaller with wider angles and they have used modern lens design to try to sharpen them up, but some of the benefits are coming from software manipulation behind the scenes. Beyond which, there are plenty of SLR lenses that are small and plenty sharp.

6. Ergonomics are often not great on MILCs. This of course is a broad generalization and depends on the camera used, but many of Sony's lower tier cameras, in particular, don't fit the hand well at all. Yes, they are small, but they don't feel as though they would be comfortable shooting for an eight hour day.

Obviously, I am more of an SLR fan. I could switch to an MILC, but I don't enjoy using EVFs (they give me eye strain pretty quickly) and I am not under the illusion that it would make me a better photographer. If I upgraded from a K-1 to a Sony A9 II, I would get similar photos, just more of them. Which I guess would be something, but doesn't feel terribly important to me. And I don't really want to either shoot my current lenses with adapters or get a new lens line up.

11-28-2020, 05:44 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote
(...)

Do the Nikon mirrorless cameras ahve in-body stabilization? Or is he talking about Sony? (Or maybe Pentax? &#128568
Yes they do, together with the latest Canon and Fujifilm mirrorless cameras and most Olympus, Panasonic and Sony cameras. Heck, even the Leica SL2 has in-body image stabilisation. Sigma and Hasselblad are the only one who don't offer such feature yet.
11-28-2020, 06:28 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by officiousbystander Quote
If an EVF is showing you an image with exposure compensated by camera settings then you're already one step removed from reality. As cheesy as this video is, there's an element of truth to it:

THE FIVE PRINCIPLES OF PENTAX --- Five principles that express the philosophy of PENTAX. --- - YouTube
I watched the video. It's actually pretty cool excepting the robotic narration. Pretty cool they are showing people shooting 50 year old spotmatics along with newer digital models and modern computer technology. I doubt Nikon or Canon would do that. Kudos.
11-28-2020, 06:39 AM - 7 Likes   #40
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Always a DSLR for me when travelling. Once I realised if ship wrecked on a deserted island I could not use the mirror in a mirrorless camera to signal a passing ship.... well.... game over!
11-28-2020, 07:08 AM   #41
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Sounds to me as if a lot of the claimed advantages/disadvantages are specific (real or imagined) to particular cameras and not in principle anything to do with whether they are mirrorless or not. Such as claiming they have better sensors/lenses/weather-proofing, true or not. Like the uninformed guy who said that a mirrorlesss advantage was IBIS

But as time goes on I fear that future improvements, yet to be seen, will be applied to mirrorless and not to DSLRs (or any that are still around), as a deliberate way of moving sales to mirrorless. People are saying that the Nikon D850 will be the last ever FF Nikon DSLR, and they may be right, and it remains to be seen if Pentax can keep up with things given their OVF policy. Any DSLRs (of any brand) still being sold in 2030 will be like the Pentax K1000 was in 1990 - a 1970's manual design still on the market surrounded by electronic auto-focussing cameras with built-in winders and a dozen program exposure modes.

I think mirrorless will be the future, even if a few DSLRs are still made, like rangefinders. That is simply because mirrorless are cheaper to make and the makers are pocketing most of the savings, so they will push them and push them for all their worth.
11-28-2020, 07:34 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
Sounds to me as if a lot of the claimed advantages/disadvantages are specific (real or imagined) to particular cameras and not in principle anything to do with whether they are mirrorless or not. Such as claiming they have better sensors/lenses/weather-proofing, true or not. Like the uninformed guy who said that a mirrorlesss advantage was IBIS

But as time goes on I fear that future improvements, yet to be seen, will be applied to mirrorless and not to DSLRs (or any that are still around), as a deliberate way of moving sales to mirrorless. People are saying that the Nikon D850 will be the last ever FF Nikon DSLR, and they may be right, and it remains to be seen if Pentax can keep up with things given their OVF policy. Any DSLRs (of any brand) still being sold in 2030 will be like the Pentax K1000 was in 1990 - a 1970's manual design still on the market surrounded by electronic auto-focussing cameras with built-in winders and a dozen program exposure modes.

I think mirrorless will be the future, even if a few DSLRs are still made, like rangefinders. That is simply because mirrorless are cheaper to make and the makers are pocketing most of the savings, so they will push them and push them for all their worth.
Totally agree. The real issues that should be pointed out about MILCs should be factors that are intrinsic to the design and thus very difficult to overcome rather than supporting systems. Overheating is simply a matter of the processor efficiency, which can reasonably be improved over time. Instead he should be talking about things like battery life and sensor banding, which in the near future DSLRs will almost always win in, or how it's much more theoretically possible to create EVF experiences in DSLRS than vice versa.
11-28-2020, 07:42 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
Always a DSLR for me when travelling. Once I realised if ship wrecked on a deserted island I could not use the mirror in a mirrorless camera to signal a passing ship.... well.... game over!
I use my {MILC} Q-7 when traveling because it is smaller; my choice has nothing to do with DSLR vs MILC.
11-28-2020, 07:43 AM   #44
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+1 and also my GRIII
11-28-2020, 07:55 AM - 1 Like   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
People are saying that the Nikon D850 will be the last ever FF Nikon DSLR, and they may be right...
Well, they are not, because Nikon has released 2 FF DSLR's since the D850 (D6 and D780).
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