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03-03-2021, 02:05 PM   #16
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As someone said, working with the larger image files is more an issue with video files.
I'm sure it becomes more an issue with RAW files, and heavier post processing - I wouldn't know.
I usually just do some very basic post processing with the jpg images, like auto levels. With my old computer, that has a Core i5 VPro and Linux, I'm able to open this image (in Gimp), from a 100mp fuji camera, and do some basic post processing fairly quickly: https://fujifilm-x.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/DSF5490.jpg

03-03-2021, 02:19 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Piziak Quote
As someone said, working with the larger image files is more an issue with video files.
I'm sure it becomes more an issue with RAW files, and heavier post processing - I wouldn't know.
I usually just do some very basic post processing with the jpg images, like auto levels. With my old computer, that has a Core i5 VPro and Linux, I'm able to open this image (in Gimp), from a 100mp fuji camera, and do some basic post processing fairly quickly: https://fujifilm-x.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/DSF5490.jpg
From JPEG's no problem. Not so great opening up 500 of them in photo editing software, or on an IPAD with limited storage, or god help you, wireless transfer of RAW's or full size JPEG at high quality settings.

Video gets into the same issue as megapixels in that who actually can really see the difference with 4k vs 1080p. Most people sit at viewing distances that your eyes just can't resolve the difference. Looks great at point blank range, same at 12 feet. 4k huge file sizes goggle storage while most end users viewing could care less if it's 1080 or 4k. And most are watching on a phone or iPad anyway that can't even use 4k. Same with huge megapixel images. Who actually prints that large on a regular basis? Most will be viewed not at a 1:1 ration on a device/computer etc where you'll never see that huge megapixel resolution. Nice for cropping though with glass that can resolve the high megapixel count.

I'd wager 99.9% of content is viewed at 4k (8mp) resolution or less, including most photo's taken.

For some I think huge megapixel is actually a hindrance. Including many professional photographer with huge editing workflow or rapid delivery demands.
03-03-2021, 02:33 PM - 3 Likes   #18
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Keep in mind that megapixels don't mean much if the lens isn't up to the same or better resolution. The resolution I get with my K-1 (36Mpx) taxes all but a couple of lenses in my collection.

This discussion kind of drifted from camera resolution to print resolution which are two different things. Unless a print is made up of several merged images, it too is going to be the product of a single lens. You can pump up the number of pixels in a print artificially (and in some cases that's a requirement so the viewer doesn't see little blocks), but actual print resolution is limited by the original camera exposure (or exposures in a multi-image print), no matter the number of pixels in that print.
03-03-2021, 03:15 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
Keep in mind that megapixels don't mean much if the lens isn't up to the same or better resolution. The resolution I get with my K-1 (36Mpx) taxes all but a couple of lenses in my collection.

This discussion kind of drifted from camera resolution to print resolution which are two different things. Unless a print is made up of several merged images, it too is going to be the product of a single lens. You can pump up the number of pixels in a print artificially (and in some cases that's a requirement so the viewer doesn't see little blocks), but actual print resolution is limited by the original camera exposure (or exposures in a multi-image print), no matter the number of pixels in that print.
Curious, what is the highest resolving Pentax lens? I know the newer Z/RF/E mount etc lenses are supposed to be designed for 45mp and up. But I don't think Sony has many that can resolve for the A7R4 which is 61mp if I remember. At some point as you mentioned it's moot as the glass is holding you back.

03-03-2021, 03:41 PM   #20
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My understanding was that a lens doesn't "resolve a certain amount of pixels". It's rather that you get diminishing returns when putting a lens in front of higher and higher megapixel count sensors, e.g. a lens might resolve (idk, just random numbers) 2000 lp/mm on a 25 mp sensor, but that might "drop" to 3500 on a 50 mp sensor (not proportional). Was that assessment wrong?
03-03-2021, 04:21 PM - 8 Likes   #21
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I find 72MP about the sweet spot for me.... optimised for shadows and highlights. I achieved this by getting both a black K1 and a Silver K1....call me visionary.....
03-03-2021, 04:23 PM - 4 Likes   #22
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I agree with most all of you, that it gets to the point where the amount of megapixels gets to a point to where it makes no sense - except for extreme cropping.

But I also do think we are going to see 50 and 100 megapixel cameras as the norm. And I think if Pentax is going to continue with the 645 cameras, it's certainly time to up its megapixels, eh?

Having said that, it sure is sweet to take this 100mp image and do some extreme cropping. https://fujifilm-x.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/DSF5490.jpg

To this (& note the 894k image was reduced to 198k in the forum upload which I could see detail lost):

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Last edited by Michael Piziak; 03-03-2021 at 04:29 PM.
03-03-2021, 04:46 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Piziak Quote
I agree with most all of you, that it gets to the point where the amount of megapixels gets to a point to where it makes no sense - except for extreme cropping.

But I also do think we are going to see 50 and 100 megapixel cameras as the norm. And I think if Pentax is going to continue with the 645 cameras, it's certainly time to up its megapixels, eh?

Having said that, it sure is sweet to take this 100mp image and do some extreme cropping. https://fujifilm-x.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/DSF5490.jpg

To this (& note the 894k image was reduced to 198k in the forum upload which I could see detail lost):
I guess in a sense of using it like a lossless digital zoom. I still would avoid 100mp as I really don't want to deal with file sizes from a 100mp camera. Maybe HEIC format will help with that. But the RAW's are going to be a pain.

I looked up the RAW uncompressed file sizes and it's about 273 megabyte per shot from a GFX 100. So I could store about 750 of them on my Ipad which I use for editing (given the typical 200mb of free space on it.). In comparison I can store over 5000 uncompressed RAW from a 24mp D750 or Z5/6 on the same device. A 64 GB card would hold about 240 shots vs 1638 or so from a 24mp camera. I guess if only using JPEG.

For storage its about 3750 shots per terabyte from the Fuji and about 25600 shots from a 24MP full frame. You can see how that would get annoying fast. A wedding photographer would probably be going through a 1 TB hard drive every week, and cloud storage would get pretty expensive.

More megapixels does come with some problems. And people will virtually never be seeing them at 1:1 in all their glory in a full size print. Also they don't make screens that can even display them at 1:1 without seeing just a small portion of the image. 8k is 33mp and that's the max we have. Maybe if you filled a wall with 4 of them or something.
03-03-2021, 05:15 PM - 6 Likes   #24
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I find the remarks about the need for more and more pixels interesting. I think I've commented before about a friend who does city / urban landscapes, natural landscapes, specific buildings, etc, and uses a Nikon D810 with 36 mp. Occasionally, he wonders about upgrading to a D850. His two or three lenses work for him (no need for a cabinet full) and on rare occasions when a certain lens need comes up, he rents it.

These are prints which are feet in dimensions, not inches. Paper prints, acrylic, metal prints at sizes like 5x8 feet. Buyers for large prints are lined up and the images are all from a 36 mp camera that's around 6 years old.

You need 50 mp for a 24"x36" (50cm x 90cm) print? Even for larger? I'm unconvinced.
Here are a couple I grabbed from his FB page (so, jpgs, facebook 'handled', etc, etc), but the point is that his prints are regularly produced at quite large sizes. And, most importantly for a photographer: sold.

First image is 60 x 96 inches (150 cm x 240 cm)
Second image is 40 x 60 inches (100 cm x 150 cm)
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03-03-2021, 05:19 PM - 1 Like   #25
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Most people can't tell a difference in prints past 200dpi on most print substrates. If it's canvas, it's significantly worse. My 24mp camera will make a very nice 24x36 print and therein lies the problem. As the print gets bigger people stand further back. 4k monitors are great and I don't people are going to sit close enough to actually use up all of that resolution. I actually think the k1 36mp is about as perfect a balance as you can get and I'd rather have the better dynamic range than more pixels. Some people do output larger or require certain professional standards for stock art and such. But for most usage, I think we have hit the sweet spot in terms of useful resolution.
03-03-2021, 05:26 PM   #26
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When Canon released the 5DS, 5DSR five or six years ago with its 50mp sensor they put out a list of about 35 lenses they recommended for it. Most were their L series but they did have 12 that were not. When they released the 90D APSC with 32mp I did see lots of people complain about quality when using older and cheaper lenses so it is a real concern.

It took until last year for someone to make a full frame sensor with more megapixels so I really don't think it's a explosion of megapixels. Canon is rumored to have a 70-90mp full frame body coming this year or next but who knows if that's true.
03-03-2021, 05:52 PM - 1 Like   #27
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If you want to get a sense of what it is like to post-process a 100mp raw image, go take a 6 or 7 image pano; stitch it together; and then do the editing and finishing.

If you don't have at least 16GB of RAM (32GB is better) and a nice, fast SSD for storage, it won't be a whole lot of fun.

But with the right computer, a larger image is not a problem to finish. Just remember, if camera sort coming with these large pixel-count sensors, your entry price has to include that more powerful computer.
03-03-2021, 07:01 PM - 3 Likes   #28
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I'm happy with what I have, I guess I'll buy what I have to.

I've printed 10 MP to 30x20 and sold many of them.

I'm happy with my gear right now, and feel sorry for those who don't.

---------- Post added 03-03-21 at 09:07 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by yucatanPentax Quote
I find the remarks about the need for more and more pixels interesting. I think I've commented before about a friend who does city / urban landscapes, natural landscapes, specific buildings, etc, and uses a Nikon D810 with 36 mp. Occasionally, he wonders about upgrading to a D850. His two or three lenses work for him (no need for a cabinet full) and on rare occasions when a certain lens need comes up, he rents it.

These are prints which are feet in dimensions, not inches. Paper prints, acrylic, metal prints at sizes like 5x8 feet. Buyers for large prints are lined up and the images are all from a 36 mp camera that's around 6 years old.

You need 50 mp for a 24"x36" (50cm x 90cm) print? Even for larger? I'm unconvinced.
Here are a couple I grabbed from his FB page (so, jpgs, facebook 'handled', etc, etc), but the point is that his prints are regularly produced at quite large sizes. And, most importantly for a photographer: sold.

First image is 60 x 96 inches (150 cm x 240 cm)
Second image is 40 x 60 inches (100 cm x 150 cm)
Just what I've always said..... the idea that there are a lot of images that need higher res than 36 MP is seriously delusional.

Given that Canon printers print at 300 DPI, if you print every pixel you'd be printing 24x16. But you'll lose a lot of detail because it's too small to see or degraded by splotchy ink. Printing at 72x48 will still appear sharp.

Last edited by normhead; 03-03-2021 at 07:09 PM.
03-03-2021, 07:11 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by yucatanPentax Quote
I find the remarks about the need for more and more pixels interesting. I think I've commented before about a friend who does city / urban landscapes, natural landscapes, specific buildings, etc, and uses a Nikon D810 with 36 mp. Occasionally, he wonders about upgrading to a D850. His two or three lenses work for him (no need for a cabinet full) and on rare occasions when a certain lens need comes up, he rents it.

These are prints which are feet in dimensions, not inches. Paper prints, acrylic, metal prints at sizes like 5x8 feet. Buyers for large prints are lined up and the images are all from a 36 mp camera that's around 6 years old.

You need 50 mp for a 24"x36" (50cm x 90cm) print? Even for larger? I'm unconvinced.
Here are a couple I grabbed from his FB page (so, jpgs, facebook 'handled', etc, etc), but the point is that his prints are regularly produced at quite large sizes. And, most importantly for a photographer: sold.

First image is 60 x 96 inches (150 cm x 240 cm)
Second image is 40 x 60 inches (100 cm x 150 cm)
My cousin does companion macro photos of details from his abstract paintings. He prints them at 4x6. Even when printed from the Nikon d3s they were pretty awe inspiring. But you dont stand a foot from a print like that . When he got a d800 his first show after had prints from both cameras and the difference was immediately apparent. He still uses the d800 now
03-03-2021, 07:19 PM   #30
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The law of diminishing returns on high res cameras hits pretty quickly.
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