[biz-engineer]

Being a little bored by the choice of digital systems (a huge choice of system as long as it's full frame mirrorless... or medium format cropped at the price of a car). So I'd be interested to get into film, with a 4x5 camera, Toyo, Intrepid etc...
I've seen a 4x5 film camera can be bought for much less than even a full frame or apsc digital. Film can still be bought from Ilford, chemicals are available, film scanner can still be bought (e.g EPSON V800). Now, I'm a bit confused about the lenses. It looks like no company makes 4x5 or 8x10 lenses anymore, but I'm not sure about that. If so, the 4x5 camera can be bought new, but the lenses including shutter should be bought from the used market, which means not necessarily available or not necessarily in good working condition, and without after sale support for repairs. Does anyone know if we can still find a few lens models available new for 4x5 film cameras?

[Sprky1285]

Posting just to see what others say. Interested to see what you find out.

[BarneyL]

Does anyone know if we can still find a few lens models available new for 4x5 film cameras?

Rodenstock Analogue Lenses

Cooke | Lenses | Large Format | Soft Focus | Photography

I think some Schneider-kreuznach lenses are also available new here and there

[photoptimist]

Many large format lenses use one of a few standard-sized leaf shutters. Mechanically-speaking, all the fragile tidbits of the lens (aperture & shutter) are in the interchangeable shutter. Other than fungus, balsam separation, or gross damage, not much can go wrong with the glass. Thus, if you get a used lens with a bad aperture or shutter mechanism, you only need to buy a replacement shutter.

Or, you could also go the pinhole route.

[RICHARD L.]

EBay often lists large-format lenses. They sell for low to medium prices in Japan and may be in excellent working order. In 4X5 format, a 75 mm is equivalent to a 24 mm in FF, a 90 mm to a 28 mm, a 150 to a 50 mm and a 210 mm to a 70 mm (factor of 3X). Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji and Nikkor lenses are available. David Muench (landscapist of the American Southwest) spent most of his life using a Linhof with Symmar or Super-Angulon lenses. Worst part is handling the film (loading, processing).


Regards

[stevebrot]

Now, I'm a bit confused about the lenses. It looks like no company makes 4x5 or 8x10 lenses anymore, but I'm not sure about that. If so, the 4x5 camera can be bought new, but the lenses including shutter should be bought from the used market, which means not necessarily available or not necessarily in good working condition, and without after sale support for repairs. Does anyone know if we can still find a few lens models available new for 4x5 film cameras?

The short answer is that lenses are available new, but may not be economically feasible; unless, of course, one has $15,000 or more to dedicate to a three-len kit. As a noob, used is your best option and the good news is that quality options in very good to excellent condition are not hard to source and prices are comparable to those for smaller format cameras.

Which brings us to focal length, maximum aperture, and so on:

• While there is some variance in actual practice, your "normal" lens for 4x5 will be ~150mm with basic wide angle and portrait-long coming in at ~90mm and ~210mm respectively. Don't be too concerned about focal length until you become accustomed to working with the larger negative. Don't waste money on shorter than 90mm until aware of minimum bellows draw with your camera. Almost all large format lenses are symmetrical design and wider lenses may not work with some cameras (complex subject involving recessed lens boards, bag bellows and other stuff).
• Fast lenses are generally fairly rare, mostly because DOF is precious and hard to manage. My fastest is f/5.6.
• More important than maximum aperture is coverage (image circle) adequate to reduce vignette and allow free use of camera movements.
• Most lenses are assembled "lens in shutter" and shutters come in various sizes to fit the lens diameter.
• Makers include Rodenstock, Schneider, Nikon, Fuji, and other recognizable names. Don't be put off by the Caltar label (house brand for Calumet). They are rebranded Rodenstock (most) and Schneider.
• I can't remember what I paid, but my Caltar 90 + Caltar 150 + Nikkor 210 set me back about $1000 total.

In regards to cost...I could have bought a K-1 for what I have spent for large format and a few lenses for what I have in supporting kit. Film is expensive as is processing; being able to develop you own negatives is a huge money saver. As for breadth of kit:

• Chamonix field camera (highly recommended)
• Three lens kit (90/150/210)
• Lens boards (Linhof standard to fit camera), one per lens
• Cable releases, one per lens
• A fair number of film holders (buy used and be picky)
• Focusing loup
• Handful of essential filters (some overlap with 35mm kit)
• Three 6x7 (120 ) film holders to fit Graflex standard (want medium format with movements? This is the inexpensive way to get it done)
• Changing bag for loading film into holders
• Something to use as a darkcloth
• Sturdy tripod with 3D platform head (my choice...ballheads are squirrelly and geared heads expensive)
• Darkroom stuff to support home processing of 4x5 and medium format negatives
• Epson V700 to digitize the output

Drawbacks
Large format is not for gunning and running. Making an exposure is a deliberate action that takes a minimum of five minutes to set up and 5-15 seconds per capture once set up. Depending on camera choice, the kit may not be particularly compact. My field camera kit fits in a daypack and weighs about the same as my K-3 with an assortment of lenses. The tripod does not fit. A monorail kit may fill several hard-side cases. Film and processing may be expensive. Arista EDU ultra (aka Foma) is our friend.

Worth the hassle?
In my opinion...yes, the results are spectacular; though one may question whether there is wisdom in shooting a format that stretches ones computer resources just to process the scans.

Resources:

Large Format Photography site and forum...amazing resource, though the forum natives are a bit snooty.

Alex Burke's Blog...a lot of information delivered in a friendly tone

Photrio Forum...film chauvinists, but deep resource.

I hope this helps...


Chamonix 045N-2 in teak mounted to Caltar II-N 150/5.6 in Copal 0...note the Bogen 3028 Super 3-D head


Steve

[Qwntm]

I've been processing b&w 4x5 film since the 1990's. The best tank I've used for that purpose is the Stearman. None of the other tanks were reliable, even processing, loading, etc. I used to tray process because of that, now I use the Stearman.

I bought my lenses off Ebay from Japan. All in perfect like new condition and cheap compared to what they used to cost new.

Multiply 35mm focal lengths by 3 to get the "un-crop" factor... 50mm is a 150mm.

You could get into 4x5, processing and everything for under $1000. Or you can spend a lot more than that. It's up to you.

Not about lenses per se, but you can see the lenses I got off ebay in this video about the Intrepid.

You Tube

You Tube

---

Last edited by Qwntm; 05-03-2021 at 11:09 AM.

[pacerr]

Given your stated goals, you might consider researching medium format film cameras. Mamiya and Bronica SLR bodies and lenses are readily available as are Yashica TLR's for120/220 film. That type of (tank) film processing is much easier and more economical than sheet film as well.

The transfer of modern camera skills to MF film is much easier and more economical than to sheet film as well.

[biz-engineer]

Or, you could also go the pinhole route.

That would be a cheap route to trial / error with film development, before buying a larger camera system and lenses etc..

---------- Post added 04-05-21 at 20:07 ----------

Given your stated goals, you might consider researching medium format film cameras. Mamiya and Bronica SLR bodies and lenses are readily available as are Yashica TLR's for120/220 film.

Good idea. For learning I could even start with a 35mm camera and rolls, so I gain some experience with film (and I'm doing mostly B&W prints from digital)

---------- Post added 04-05-21 at 20:13 ----------

I bought my lenses off Ebay from Japan.

Sourcing from Japan is a good choice. I've checked MF/LF lenses are my local shop downtown, I'd found a couple of lenses, but they aren't especially cheap and not in good condition. A search in ebay / Japan, returned a lot more choice of brands and focal length, and in better (looking) conditions.

---------- Post added 04-05-21 at 20:16 ----------

Rodenstock Analogue Lenses

Good find. Looks like old new stock. Most are discontinued.

---------- Post added 04-05-21 at 20:23 ----------

Caltar 90 + Caltar 150 + Nikkor 210

Caltar seems relatively popular (done a web search)

Chamonix field camera (highly recommended)

It looks like the Chamonix camera are much better finished than intrepid ones, good choice and not overly expensive actually (first model costs around $1K).

Resources: Large Format Photography site and forum...amazing resource, though the forum natives are a bit snooty. Alan Burke's Blog...a lot of information delivered in a friendly tone Photrio Forum...film chauvinists, but deep resource.

I guess you meant Alex Burke, I had already read his blog and just found that he published an ebook about film photography. I should buy the book and study it, before buying any equipment.

Don't waste money on shorter than 90mm until aware of minimum bellows draw with your camera.

I have no ideal about that, and thank for letting me know.

---------- Post added 04-05-21 at 20:24 ----------

Chamonix 045N-2 in teak mounted to Caltar II-N 150/5.6 in Copal 0...note the Bogen 3028 Super 3-D head

Great looking camera. With such camera, the photographer has to think about a lot of things for it to work, not like just pressing a shutter button on a digital camera.

[stevebrot]

I guess you meant Alex Burke

Corrected!

Great looking camera. With such camera, the photographer has to think about a lot of things for it to work, not like just pressing a shutter button on a digital camera.

Yes...the three big gotchas are:

• Accidental double exposure (forgetting to swap out film holder or reusing a previously exposed sheet)
• Forgetting to close the shutter after focusing
• Forgetting to remove/replace the darkslide (the darkslide demon is your constant companion)

I could add "forgetting to cock the shutter", but the outcome there is only a missed shot...only a problem is shooting action...


Steve

[stevebrot]

I have no ideal about that, and thank for letting me know.

There are four general issues with wide angles:

• Minimum bellows draw...Whether the camera can rack in sufficient to allow infinity focus at the chosen focal length given the thickness of front standard + folded bellows + thickness of rear standard. This is a camera design issue, but might be remedied by using a recessed lens board.
• Physical clearance to allow movements with short focal lengths. This camera design issue cannot be overcome and is more common below 90mm focal length.
• Bellows flexibility to allow movements with short focal lengths. Substitution of a "bag"-type bellows is the usual remedy.
• Optical vignette due to incident angle of light to film at edges of the image circle. Remedy is use of lens-specific radial ND filters ($$$).

So far I am happy at 90mm and my camera has few limitations at that focal length. It can go as short as 45mm, but need is slight and wallet is shallow.

P.S. As for Intrepid vs. Chamonix...Both use the same general design and share many of the same strengths as a result. The difference in fit and finish and materials is obvious, but I know happy owners of both brands.


Steve

[Qwntm]

You can get an Intrepid for around $400 USD which includes shipping to the USA. It's nothing beautiful to look at but it's functional and it works well.


I have a Zone VI Mahogany camera and I use the Intrepid 95% of the time. And it's 4 pounds lighter than the Zone VI which is the big attraction.

[stevebrot]

And it's 4 pounds lighter than the Zone VI which is the big attraction.

Just to put in a plug for the Chamonix...mine is 3 pounds lighter...


Steve

[travelswsage]

Wow, that Chamonix is a pretty camera. Is that wood?


A few other considerations: Metal vs. wood. If you are working in a studio or close to home it doesn't matter much but if this is for heavy landscape use -- in and out of bags and in backpacks consider a metal camera. I started out with a Zone VI which is a beautiful camera but it didnt hold up well to heavy duty use and became rickety -- I eventually tired of guessing the amount of sag I was going to get when tightening down some front tilt so I eventually switched to an Arca Swiss classic which is built like a tank and can withstand a lot of abuse.


Also, I'm not sure it was mentioned in the excellent posts above but you'll also need a light meter -- I used a Zone VI modified Pentax spotmeter but any meter should do. Bring along a small grey card to meter off.


Exposures: Keep careful track of what you are shooting and for important shots either bracket or shoot at the identical exposure and then develop one sheet and adjust the exposure through processing time if your over or under exposed. My old E-6 lab guy used to hate when I walked in with 2 dozen boxes of film and asked him to develop one and when the first batch was done we'd give exposure adjustments to the remaining sheets. Labs used to do this in 1/3 stop increments but I'm not sure if anyone offers this level of service anymore.


Cable releases -- Steve mentioned one per lens. If you can get a deal on these buy a dozen or more. I've left a trail of these darn things from here in Pa to California and back again

As others have mentioned wider than 90mm usually needs a bag bellow. They are a pita and can cause you to miss shots. Also, even though I have and used a 75mm without one on the Arca it was impossible on the Zone VI. And if you are using one of the wooden folding cameras they won't fold down with a bag bellows on -- you'll have to change back.

If you are going to be shooting outdoors use a dedicated dark cloth that has weights in the corners. Nothing worse than trying to set up a shot in the wind with your dark cloth flying all over the place.

A three lens setup is a good way to go -- my favorites were the 90, 120 and 210. I also liked the 360 but a racked out bellows in the wind didn't always work well.


Solid tripod head. The old Bogen 3047 head was great for 4x5 and you can probably pick up one cheap these days.

Enjoy!

[biz-engineer]

What the cost of 4x5 film sheets? According to google, price range 1 and 5 Euro/$ a sheet, depending on the brand. Color film 4x5 is significantly more expensive.
What is the main concern for getting good sharp results with 4x5 film? Focusing is done on ground glass looking at it with a magnifier under a dark cloth, but what if the film plane doesn't exactly match the ground glass plane after inserting the film holder? Hopefully what has been focused on the ground glass remains in focus on the film.