I learn something all the time about photography - what shutter is

swanlefitte · 07-13-2021, 11:10 AM - **1 Like**

In order for a shutter to move the 18mm from top to bottom in 1/180s it moves at 18mm (180). 3240mm or 3.24 m/s. That is 11.664 km/h. The stress of acceleration and deceleration will wear it down. By 1/500 the blade would have to move at 33km/h. Imagine being in a car accelerating from 0 to 33km/h in 1/500s.
There is a reason to max how fast a shutter blade moves and 2 blades helps overcomes this.
Making a blade 3 parts allowing more flex is another.
It is a nice piece of engineering.

**Michail_P** · 07-13-2021, 12:28 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Definitely. And that is concerning me somehow, starting with Li-Ion batteries. Some cameras models will be short lived (<10 years) because special batteries not being made anymore. I'd eventually prefer cameras and lenses that can be repaired, even half a century after being made. Even such "low tech" such as lenses or leaf shutters for view cameras aren't being made anymore, which means, eventually some days, photographers haven't got any control over the future of their tools, control being in the hands of technology companies and investors/shareholders.

Yeah I see your point. Unfortunately, camera brands like to show off new technologies and improvements on current issues. The market is unforgiving and it cannot be any other way. I would definitely like to get some more modularity in camera parts. That could mean availability, considering the repair department. Batteries, as you mentioned, are a good example. Of course, I know, there are a bunch of technical issues toward this, but dreams are free of charge.

stevebrot · 07-13-2021, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by othar

Another peculiarity: not all camera shutter curtains move vertically, some vintage cameras (like my Zenit E) have a horizontally moving curtain.

As do some current model cameras

Leica MP
Fully mechanical and all metal...one of two film models* with traditional shutters and currently on backorder...

Image from B&H listing | LINK

Steve

* The other being the meterless M-A. The electronic M7 is, sadly, with us no more...

stevebrot · 07-13-2021, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by steephill

Another variation is the shutter on the Pentax 110 SLR cameras which also acts as the aperture blades. The lenses have no aperture blades so the shutter does dual duty.

The Pentax 110 does not have a focal plane shutter, but instead combines a two-bladed leaf shutter with aperture mechanism in a manner unique to that camera.

Steve

Michael Piziak · 07-13-2021, 01:51 PM

Something curious I also learned, is that at high shutter speeds only a sliver of the sensor is exposed (from top to bottom I believe?)

**ramseybuckeye** · 07-13-2021, 01:59 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by othar

Another peculiarity: not all camera shutter curtains move vertically, some vintage cameras (like my Zenit E) have a horizontally moving curtain.

Of course that change when you rotate your camera 90 degrees

Michael Piziak · 07-13-2021, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by ramseybuckeye

Of course that change when you rotate your camera 90 degrees

Lol, good one. Almost belongs in our joke thread - big smiles !!!

**othar** · 07-13-2021, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

As do some current model cameras

Interesting, I did not expect that, because in theory the possible sync speed for cameras should be faster when the curtains move vertically, because the way is shorter (or is there an error in my reasoning? )

stevebrot · 07-13-2021, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by othar

Interesting, I did not expect that, because in theory the possible sync speed for cameras should be faster when the curtains move vertically, because the way is shorter (or is there an error in my reasoning? )

You reasoning is correct. One of the historic advantages of vertical run shutters is faster flash sync. My Ricoh Singlex TLS in the other room is about the same age as my Pentax Spotmatic II and a major distinguishing factor is that the Copal vertical run shutter in the Singlex syncs at 1/125s vs. 1/60s for the SP II.

The Leica models mentioned above, true to their heritage and shutter design, sync at 1/50s. It should be noted that the horizontal run (titanium!) curtains on the Pentax LX only syncs at 1/75s and longer settings.

Steve

Michael Piziak · 07-13-2021, 03:14 PM

I was just reading some camera reviews, of retro cameras, and the author commented that the Leica M10-D didn't have a "true mechanical shutter."

What does this mean?

source: 9 Retro-Style Cameras That are True Modern Marvels Under The Hood

vonBaloney · 07-13-2021, 03:14 PM

My K-5 has developed this thing where it vignettes on the left side of the frame that either only happens or is only noticeable at high shutter speeds (say 1/4000 or faster). Any thoughts on what is going wrong there mechanically?

**othar** · 07-13-2021, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

My K-5 has developed this thing where it vignettes on the left side of the frame that either only happens or is only noticeable at high shutter speeds (say 1/4000 or faster). Any thoughts on what is going wrong there mechanically?

Maybe the two curtains are not parallel, so the opening on the left side is smaller and therefore the image gets darker

vonBaloney · 07-13-2021, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by othar

Maybe the two curtains are not parallel, so the opening on the left side is smaller and therefore the image gets darker

A reasonable theory.

Wheatfield · 07-13-2021, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by swanlefitte

In order for a shutter to move the 18mm from top to bottom in 1/180s it moves at 18mm (180). 3240mm or 3.24 m/s. That is 11.664 km/h. The stress of acceleration and deceleration will wear it down. By 1/500 the blade would have to move at 33km/h. Imagine being in a car accelerating from 0 to 33km/h in 1/500s.
There is a reason to max how fast a shutter blade moves and 2 blades helps overcomes this.
Making a blade 3 parts allowing more flex is another.
It is a nice piece of engineering.

My understanding is the fastest actual shutter speed is the flash sync speed and after that it's done by the width of the slit.
I've been known to be wrong though.

PDL · 07-13-2021, 05:45 PM

All of you should check out:
Focal-plane shutter - Wikipedia

There are two basic types of focal plane shutters used in SLR's. Horizontal (like my Fujica SLR's) and Vertical (like all of my Pentax DSLR's) - please note the difference in the letter D.

For X sync flash, it will only go off when the shutter is fully open. In the case of my Fujica's it was 1/60th of a second - the flash duration of my strobe was 1/2000th of a second. On all of my Pentax bodies the X sync is 1/180th of a second. Meaning that the flash will go off when only when the sensor is fully exposed.

In order to achieve shutter speeds above 1/180th of a second, the second blade (talking vertical here) will start to move leaving the exposure time at each point of the sensor to be what is dictated. The second blade release is electronically controlled (since the early 70's with Aperture Priority cameras hitting the market - i.e. Fujica ST-901). This means that all shutter speeds above 1/180th of a second are obtained by having a slit (distance between the first and second blades) moving across the sensor.

The speed that the blades move vertically is constant, I will let the arithmetic people figure out the speed - I don't care. The size of the distance between the blades is what determines the shutter speed.

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07-13-2021, 11:10 AM - 1 Like	#16
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	In order for a shutter to move the 18mm from top to bottom in 1/180s it moves at 18mm (180). 3240mm or 3.24 m/s. That is 11.664 km/h. The stress of acceleration and deceleration will wear it down. By 1/500 the blade would have to move at 33km/h. Imagine being in a car accelerating from 0 to 33km/h in 1/500s. There is a reason to max how fast a shutter blade moves and 2 blades helps overcomes this. Making a blade 3 parts allowing more flex is another. It is a nice piece of engineering.

07-13-2021, 12:28 PM - 1 Like	#17
Michail_P Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Kalymnos Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,006	Originally posted by biz-engineer Definitely. And that is concerning me somehow, starting with Li-Ion batteries. Some cameras models will be short lived (<10 years) because special batteries not being made anymore. I'd eventually prefer cameras and lenses that can be repaired, even half a century after being made. Even such "low tech" such as lenses or leaf shutters for view cameras aren't being made anymore, which means, eventually some days, photographers haven't got any control over the future of their tools, control being in the hands of technology companies and investors/shareholders. Yeah I see your point. Unfortunately, camera brands like to show off new technologies and improvements on current issues. The market is unforgiving and it cannot be any other way. I would definitely like to get some more modularity in camera parts. That could mean availability, considering the repair department. Batteries, as you mentioned, are a good example. Of course, I know, there are a bunch of technical issues toward this, but dreams are free of charge.

07-13-2021, 12:37 PM	#18
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by othar Another peculiarity: not all camera shutter curtains move vertically, some vintage cameras (like my Zenit E) have a horizontally moving curtain. As do some current model cameras Leica MP Fully mechanical and all metal...one of two film models* with traditional shutters and currently on backorder... Image from B&H listing \| LINK Steve * The other being the meterless M-A. The electronic M7 is, sadly, with us no more...

07-13-2021, 12:53 PM	#19
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by steephill Another variation is the shutter on the Pentax 110 SLR cameras which also acts as the aperture blades. The lenses have no aperture blades so the shutter does dual duty. The Pentax 110 does not have a focal plane shutter, but instead combines a two-bladed leaf shutter with aperture mechanism in a manner unique to that camera. Steve

07-13-2021, 01:51 PM	#20
Michael Piziak Closed Account Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,815 Original Poster	Something curious I also learned, is that at high shutter speeds only a sliver of the sensor is exposed (from top to bottom I believe?)

07-13-2021, 01:59 PM - 1 Like	#21
ramseybuckeye Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hampstead, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 17,295	Originally posted by othar Another peculiarity: not all camera shutter curtains move vertically, some vintage cameras (like my Zenit E) have a horizontally moving curtain. Of course that change when you rotate your camera 90 degrees

07-13-2021, 02:36 PM	#22
Michael Piziak Closed Account Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,815 Original Poster	Originally posted by ramseybuckeye Of course that change when you rotate your camera 90 degrees Lol, good one. Almost belongs in our joke thread - big smiles !!!

07-13-2021, 02:49 PM	#23
othar Site Supporter Join Date: May 2014 Location: Linz Photos: Albums Posts: 3,098	Originally posted by stevebrot As do some current model cameras Interesting, I did not expect that, because in theory the possible sync speed for cameras should be faster when the curtains move vertically, because the way is shorter (or is there an error in my reasoning? )

07-13-2021, 03:06 PM	#24
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by othar Interesting, I did not expect that, because in theory the possible sync speed for cameras should be faster when the curtains move vertically, because the way is shorter (or is there an error in my reasoning? ) You reasoning is correct. One of the historic advantages of vertical run shutters is faster flash sync. My Ricoh Singlex TLS in the other room is about the same age as my Pentax Spotmatic II and a major distinguishing factor is that the Copal vertical run shutter in the Singlex syncs at 1/125s vs. 1/60s for the SP II. The Leica models mentioned above, true to their heritage and shutter design, sync at 1/50s. It should be noted that the horizontal run (titanium!) curtains on the Pentax LX only syncs at 1/75s and longer settings. Steve

07-13-2021, 03:14 PM	#25
Michael Piziak Closed Account Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,815 Original Poster	I was just reading some camera reviews, of retro cameras, and the author commented that the Leica M10-D didn't have a "true mechanical shutter." What does this mean? source: 9 Retro-Style Cameras That are True Modern Marvels Under The Hood

07-13-2021, 03:14 PM	#26
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	My K-5 has developed this thing where it vignettes on the left side of the frame that either only happens or is only noticeable at high shutter speeds (say 1/4000 or faster). Any thoughts on what is going wrong there mechanically?

07-13-2021, 03:18 PM	#27
othar Site Supporter Join Date: May 2014 Location: Linz Photos: Albums Posts: 3,098	Originally posted by vonBaloney My K-5 has developed this thing where it vignettes on the left side of the frame that either only happens or is only noticeable at high shutter speeds (say 1/4000 or faster). Any thoughts on what is going wrong there mechanically? Maybe the two curtains are not parallel, so the opening on the left side is smaller and therefore the image gets darker

07-13-2021, 03:29 PM	#28
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by othar Maybe the two curtains are not parallel, so the opening on the left side is smaller and therefore the image gets darker A reasonable theory.

07-13-2021, 03:57 PM	#29
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,986	Originally posted by swanlefitte In order for a shutter to move the 18mm from top to bottom in 1/180s it moves at 18mm (180). 3240mm or 3.24 m/s. That is 11.664 km/h. The stress of acceleration and deceleration will wear it down. By 1/500 the blade would have to move at 33km/h. Imagine being in a car accelerating from 0 to 33km/h in 1/500s. There is a reason to max how fast a shutter blade moves and 2 blades helps overcomes this. Making a blade 3 parts allowing more flex is another. It is a nice piece of engineering. My understanding is the fastest actual shutter speed is the flash sync speed and after that it's done by the width of the slit. I've been known to be wrong though.

07-13-2021, 05:45 PM	#30
PDL Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: PNW USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,128	All of you should check out: Focal-plane shutter - Wikipedia There are two basic types of focal plane shutters used in SLR's. Horizontal (like my Fujica SLR's) and Vertical (like all of my Pentax DSLR's) - please note the difference in the letter D. For X sync flash, it will only go off when the shutter is fully open. In the case of my Fujica's it was 1/60th of a second - the flash duration of my strobe was 1/2000th of a second. On all of my Pentax bodies the X sync is 1/180th of a second. Meaning that the flash will go off when only when the sensor is fully exposed. In order to achieve shutter speeds above 1/180th of a second, the second blade (talking vertical here) will start to move leaving the exposure time at each point of the sensor to be what is dictated. The second blade release is electronically controlled (since the early 70's with Aperture Priority cameras hitting the market - i.e. Fujica ST-901). This means that all shutter speeds above 1/180th of a second are obtained by having a slit (distance between the first and second blades) moving across the sensor. The speed that the blades move vertically is constant, I will let the arithmetic people figure out the speed - I don't care. The size of the distance between the blades is what determines the shutter speed.