[Serkevan]

Microsoft couldn't beat Apple on a fair playing field. So now you have Microsoft and Android users taking on Apple through legislation. Monoply capitalism at work. Sad, undemocratic, and gamesmanship.

Interestingly, Windows users were told that having the default Windows programs (Internet Explorer, Media Player etc.) was in breach of antitrust.

Interestingly, Microsoft (and not Apple) is the company that was slapped with a 497 million € (Microsoft Corp. v. Commission - Wikipedia) for making it hard for third parties to enter their ecosystem.

In any case, the post is not really relevant to the EU proposal at hand. They are mandating a reasonable connector to be standard, nothing more. Definitely not "making Apple change to be as bad as their often delinquent competition". Suggesting that is frankly ridiculous.

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Last edited by Serkevan; 09-28-2021 at 06:04 AM.

[bertwert]

But as to the topic of this thread... I think a USB-C standard is an excellent idea. It's a highly versatile connection that's unmatched as far as I know, and is certainly helping environmental concerns as Serkevan mentions above.

For sure there's worries about dongle this and dongle that - but laptop manufacturers can still do it in such a way that this is not a concern. My newish Thinkpad charges by USB-C, but still has HDMI, Ethernet, several USB-A sockets, headphone jack, etc. So in today's world where these are still needed, it's great. In fact, when I'm at home, it's plugged into the USB-C only which is connected to my 4k monitor, and gigabit ethernet connection (just internal network at that speed, to the whole internet it's more like a megabit connection lol), external hard drive setup, and headphones. All on the one connection that works perfectly fine - it's more convenient and compatible with future devices than a plain docking station for example.

As to Apple - I hate the lack of customer fix ability - hard drives do fail. RAM and hard drives are also super common pieces of hardware for the end customer to upgrade, and can be a cheap (ish) upgrade without having to buy a whole new machine. Hence why I specifically chose my current laptop, and it has two user interchangeable RAM slots, and two hard drive slots (one SATA, one NVME). Though I'm really quite irritated by the integrated battery, which while user replaceable, means I cannot carry a spare with me - though with USB-C charging, I can simply carry a big phone external battery that provides a similar amount of power.

[normhead]

Dudes, it not about you guys and your tinkering ways. It's about people who are happy to let Apple make the technical decisions and people who'd like to deny them that right.

Having followed the Apple approach right from the start, I have way more confidence in Apple than I do in bunch of bureaucrats and haters.

Everyone has the right to vote with their wallets.

Interesting that some would deny us that.

[bertwert]

Dudes, it not about you guys and your tinkering ways. It's about people who are happy to let Apple make the technical decisions and people who'd like to deny them that right.

I don't disagree with that at all - the problem is in the repair cost if you bring it in somewhere. It will be much higher as the whole interface board needs replacing (over $1000 odd) rather than just a $200 SSD.

Not to mention the higher initial cost compared to equivalent hardware from another manufacturer...

[cxdoo]

Dudes, it not about you guys and your tinkering ways. It's about people who are happy to let Apple make the technical decisions and people who'd like to deny them that right.

Having followed the Apple approach right from the start, I have way more confidence in Apple than I do in bunch of bureaucrats and haters.

Everyone has the right to vote with their wallets.

Interesting that some would deny us that.

Norm, this* is not about stifling competition or Apple in particular. This is about reducing the amount of electronic junk created every year.

* - this being mandating the physical shape of charger contact.

[ZombieArmy]

People claim they can do "just as good" repairs as Apple can. Many of them are little more than frauds.

They not only do just as good as apple, they do better. Apple's idea of repair is replacing an entire mainboard while many independent repair shops can do on board repairs resulting in far more economic repair and less waste.

Apple went through this in it's infancy. Customer dissatisfaction with incompetent repair facilities reflecting poorly on the company.

So because of some internal surveys by Apple (a company with a vested interest in selling more products) people shouldn't be able to fix their products? Interesting.

Essentially, these governments are mandating unregulated repair facilities. And what happens when you deregulate an industry is well known. More shady practices. More unqualified repair people scamming the public, and for Apple and the companies involved, less customer satisfaction.

What does that even mean? People own their products not Apple, they don't need permission to get it fixed. Believe it or not repairs outside of the main manufacturer makes the world go round. Cars, plumbing, electrical work, hospital equipment all done by outside third party professional repair. Stuff that really impacts peoples lives and you're worried about some damn consumer electronic company because they're worried some people might screw up a repair?

This is definitely something governments should keep thier nose out of. It's not that people don't have choice now. They don't have to buy Apple. But having legislators tell me Apple has to change to be as bad as their often delinquent competition is just wrong. People don't need help with this choice.

When super corporations are trying to take the ownership of products out of the users hands government intervention is required. It isn't just Apple as they're leading the example for many others to follow. Government legislation in places like Massachusetts to make sure that schematics and manuals are available for car repair have already been necessary moving forward. But you're right, god forbid if a mcdonalds franchisee can diagnose and repair their ice cream machines.

I have never thought it would be good thing to tell Windows users how to manage their affairs. It's so disappointing how many completely arrogant Windows users think it's thier right to stick their nose into my business and the business of the companies I support. Microsoft couldn't beat Apple on a fair playing field. So now you have Microsoft and Android users taking on Apple through legislation. Monoply capitalism at it's worst. If your way isn't as good as the other guy's way, get legislation to have the other guy banned. Sad, undemocratic, and gamesmanship.[

I'm pretty sure windows has 87% marketshare buddy and Linux beats Apple in corporate server use. If Apple can only win by controlling their devices after they sold them then maybe they shouldn't be a damn company. Why do you take anything said against Apple as a personal insult? They're a soulless corporation who's only interest is to get more money out of people by any means necessary. Creating a more sustainable future for electronics does not prevent them from doing business or from you buying their products.

There won't suddenly be a gun to your head to get your products fixed by a spooky third party repair, you can go to your genius bar just as you always could, or just buy a new shiny product. You speak of monopolies but there is a monopoly on repair by these manufacturers. People should have the right to go anywhere they want to fix their products, or do it themselves if they want. Why is this such a difficult concept?

[normhead]

Norm, this* is not about stifling competition or Apple in particular. This is about reducing the amount of electronic junk created every year.

* - this being mandating the physical shape of charger contact.

Do you honestly think this is the way to reduce electronic junk? Apple has the absolute best recycling program in the industry. Why didn't they force other companies to adopt Apple' like recycling programs? I'll be dropping 3 computers that would otherwise be landfill next time I go by an Apple store, at no cost to myself for recycling. 95% of some current Apple product is made from recycled materials. It's rare the legislation does what it's claimed it will do. Most often, the legislation supports lofty goals that everyone agrees with, while actually accomplishing something much less effective or even counter productive. So you're going to give the other companies a pass on responsible recycling policy, because they use a preferred connector?

Ya'll been conned.

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Last edited by normhead; 09-28-2021 at 09:32 AM.

[Serkevan]

Do you honestly think this is the way to reduce electronic junk? Apple has the absolute best recycling program in the industry. Why didn't they force other companies to adopt Apple' like recycling programs? I'll be dropping 3 computers that would otherwise be landfill next time I go by an Apple store, at no cost to myself for recycling. 95% of some current Apple product is made from recycled materials. It's rare the legislation does what it's claimed it will do. Most often, the legislation supports lofty goals that everyone agrees with, while actually accomplishing something much less effective or even counter productive. So you're going to give the other companies a pass on responsible recycling policy, because they use a preferred connector?

Ya'll been conned.

I'll believe Apple's claims about recycling when I see numbers of recovered elements, because AFAIK their "recycling" is mostly refurbishing and some limited recovery - certainly not a fantastic thing. Well, fantastic marketing, that's for sure. Apple Forces Recyclers to Shred All iPhones and MacBooks, https://www.vice.com/en/article/xygww4/apple-does-not-melt-iphones-into-gold


I can claim that 95% of a computer (the plastic) is recycled and then do exactly squat about the actually problematic materials.

[normhead]

I'll believe Apple's claims about recycling when I see numbers of recovered elements, because AFAIK their "recycling" is mostly refurbishing and some limited recovery - certainly not a fantastic thing. Well, fantastic marketing, that's for sure. Apple Forces Recyclers to Shred All iPhones and MacBooks, Almost Nothing About the ?Apple Harvests Gold From iPhones? Story Is True


I can claim that 95% of a computer (the plastic) is recycled and then do exactly squat about the actually problematic materials.

To funny. 95% of iPhones are plastic?
Where'd you get that? Did you make it up?
"Apple Forces Recyclers to Shred All iPhones and MacBooks"

You mean shred instead of refurbish as part of the recycling process?
Which part of the "Customer satisfaction is increased by keeping previously failed or old equipment off the market." is it you don't get?
You continue to characterize decisions Apple has made to increase customer satisfaction with their product as somehow suspicious.

But you didn't answer my question.
Why didn't the EU mandate that other manufacturers meet Apple's recycling requirements? If Apple is so poor at it, how much could it have cost them?
What other company will accept their old product for recycling at no cost to the consumer?
Why don't all companies have to do that?

These are bigger issues than USB-c. Typical political "make the most noise, while doing the least possible," grand standing. Fodder for suckers?

According to the EU, the most important sustainability issue in electronics is too many power supplies. What a bunch of morons.
It reminds me of Monty Pythons "People aren't wearing enough hats." Diversionary at best. Anti-competitve anti-innovation at worst.

If 90% PC users had their way, there would be no Apple. The world won't be right for them util there isn't. The rise of Apple was one of the biggest slaps in the face to their self worth ever. (So sad that one's self worth can be so tied up in promoting one corporation over another.) And they are still fighting it.

ANd I guy who just says " I like the way apple does it." and explains why is subject to well, read the above.

But I completely get it. For years, the folks repeating "Apple will die, Apple won't last another year." guys were made to look like idiots. They haven't gotten over it. At least that's my take.

You'd think by now some of them would realize that maybe Apple gets some things right, when others don't.

[Serkevan]

But you didn't answer my question.
Why didn't the EU mandate that other manufacturers meet Apple's recycling requirements? If Apple is so poor at it, how much could it have cost them?
What other company will accept their old product for recycling at no cost to the consumer?
Why don't all companies have to do that?

These are bigger issues than USB-c. Typical political "make the most noise, while doing the least possible," grand standing. Fodder for suckers?

According to the EU, the most important sustainability issue in electronics is too many power supplies. What a bunch of morons.
It reminds me of Monty Pythons "People aren't wearing enough hats." Diversionary at best. Anti-competitve anti-innovation at worst.

I fate world of 90% PC users had their way, there would be no Apple. The world won't be right for them util there isn't. The rise of Apple was one of the biggest slaps in the face to their self worth ever. (So sad that one's self worth can be so tied up in promoting one corporation over another.) And they are still fighting it.

EUR-Lex - 02012L0019-20180704 - EN - EUR-Lex

I wonder. It's mandatory for manufacturers to recycle e-waste.

The EU, by the way, is the funder of my PhD work on energy storage that is fully recyclable and does not use toxic metals anywhere - the reason being that recycling is basically inviable. Apple pays lip service where it matters.

To funny. 95% of iPhones are plastic?
Where'd you get that? Did you make it up?
"Apple Forces Recyclers to Shred All iPhones and MacBooks"

You mean shred instead of refurbish as part of the recycling process?
Which part of the "Customer satisfaction is increased by keeping previously failed or old equipment off the market." is it you don't get?

I was being snide, Norm. Don't take the number too literally. Regardless, the actually dangerous components in a computer make up a ridiculously low percentage of its mass or volume. You can avoid their recycling COMPLETELY and still claim well over 90%+ of the total materials (plastics, structural metals, heat sinks, etc.) are recycled. You didn't fix any problems because the issue is with the batteries, screens and chips you're trashing, but it looks great on marketing materials.

Regarding customer satisfaction, give me customer satisfaction studies from an independent source that does not get millions from the result being, what a surprise, what they want.

If you didn't jump in every mention of electronics with an "Apple does it better" people would probably be less contrarian.

[Wheatfield]

Norm, this* is not about stifling competition or Apple in particular. This is about reducing the amount of electronic junk created every year.

* - this being mandating the physical shape of charger contact.

Guys, you are being trolled, and quite successfully from all appearances. I'm only reading one side of the conversation but it is apparent you are trying to hit a constantly moving target. This is classic trolling.

---------- Post added Sep 28th, 2021 at 03:39 PM ----------

I'm pretty sure windows has 87% marketshare buddy and Linux beats Apple in corporate server use. If Apple can only win by controlling their devices after they sold them then maybe they shouldn't be a damn company. Why do you take anything said against Apple as a personal insult? They're a soulless corporation who's only interest is to get more money out of people by any means necessary. Creating a more sustainable future for electronics does not prevent them from doing business or from you buying their products.

Apple wouldn't even exist were it not for Microsoft bailing them out. This is really getting hilarious.

---------- Post added Sep 28th, 2021 at 03:42 PM ----------

If you didn't jump in every mention of electronics with an "Apple does it better" people would probably be less contrarian.

If people didn't get sucked under bridges, threads would be a lot more productive, and probably less off topic.

[ThorSanchez]

People claim they can do "just as good" repairs as Apple can. Many of them are little more than frauds. Apple went through this in it's infancy. Customer dissatisfaction with incompetent repair facilities reflecting poorly on the company. Essentially, these governments are mandating unregulated repair facilities. And what happens when you deregulate an industry is well known. More shady practices. More unqualified repair people scamming the public, and for Apple and the companies involved, less customer satisfaction. This is definitely something governments should keep thier nose out of. It's not that people don't have choice now. They don't have to buy Apple. But having legislators tell me Apple has to change to be as bad as their often delinquent competition is just wrong. People don't need help with this choice.

I own an Audi. I have a sister-in-law who had a BMW. I've had mine for seven years and have spent a grand total of a few thousand dollars on maintenance and repairs. She'd drop $500 for an oil change and a 10,000 mile inspection that took 15 minutes. She eventually sold the car because of that. My oil change costs $50 and is every bit as good as Audi's. I changed my spark plugs, and my supercharger belt, and my brake pads and rotors, I flushed my brake fluid. One or two of those things at the dealer would have cost as much as I spent to do all of them myself.


Everyone should have the right to do what they want with the things they own. Including taking them to an independent repair shop or try to do it themselves. I couldn't even imagine having to box up my computer to take to the nearest Apple store if something went wrong. I order the parts and I fix it in my home office, I don't drive an hour and a half to DC, that would be insane.

[johnmflores]

I standardized on USB-C a couple of years ago and give preference to devices with USB-C. My laptop, phone, and action cameras are all USB-C. At this point, I won't buy a camera if it's NOT USB-C. And I won't buy Apple products with Lightning, not because Lightning is inferior, but because I'm trying to simplify my on-the-road charging setup.

[Lord Lucan]

Steve Wosniak had major brain damage and was a tinkerer by nature. The only reason he was ever on the Apple side of the fence was because he was really good at tinkering.

Amazing dissing of a brilliant engineer, and by an Apple fan as well! Like many successful engineering companies, Apple was founded by a partnership of an engineer and a salesman - Rolls Royce is another example. Without Woziak's "tinkering" back then, there would have been no Apple computer, and without Jobs - the most brilliant salesman of modern times - it would not have been sold.

Essentially, these governments are mandating unregulated repair facilities. And what happens when you deregulate an industry is well known. More shady practices. More unqualified repair people scamming the public, .... It's not that people don't have choice now. They don't have to buy Apple. But having legislators tell me Apple has to change to be as bad as their often delinquent competition is just wrong.

Ridiculous, and the key word there is "now". In fact inside stories from official Apple repair desks show Apple's policy is to do everything they can to persuade customers to buy new, rather than have a repair. Eye-watering repair costs and finding additional "faults" are part of this. Is this a scam to get me to replace a scr? - Apple Community Apple are scammers themselves.

I don't care what happens between Apple and their own customers. But unfortunately, like many International megacorporations, when Apple coughs the whole world is shaken. Apple's policies, whether opposing standardisation or on repairs, are effectively test cases for other industries. If Apple and their allies* get their way, then, for example, tens of thousands of independent car repair workshops around the World will have to shut down, including the one I use just down the road from me - who are neither delinquents nor scammers by the way. If Apple can successfully play the "safety card" on iGadget repairs, you could certainly then play it on cars and tractors. This is a massive economic issue and governments should certainly be taking an interest in what is going on.

* The leading opponents to Right to Repair are Apple (the clear leader), Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Facebook and Tesla. Others include AT&T, Lilly Inc., T-Mobile, Medtronic, Caterpillar, John Deere, General Electric, Philips, and eBay. Yet Google and Ebay don't even manufacture anything!

[normhead]

I sure am glad there's a marketplace to decide these things, not a bunch of opinionated internet posters.
Nothing could be worse than being at the mercy of these guys and their personal consumer choices in the market place.
Long live the marketplace.
I can buy what I want, they can buy what they want.
They don't get away in what I should like or want.