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11-10-2021, 07:38 AM - 4 Likes   #46
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You guys are hilarious.
No one said the iPhone would take the place of my camera for every image.
But for the image posted it did fine job and I don't need better.
And the image posted is what a great many people want from their phones.

It is so funny, you post an image and say "this is good for this" and everyone says "but it's not good for this other irrelevant thing that was never mentioned."

Some of us look at a piece of photographic equipment and ask "what can I use that for." Others say "I can't use to for this, that or the other."

If someone gives me a new iPhone, I'll use it instead of my iPhone 5, for the better camera. Would I use it to shoot the Orion Nebula, probably not. Would I use a camera that would take great pictures of the Orion Nebula for snapshots like this? Not a chance. Personally, I like family pictures on hikes more than I like images of the Orion Nebula. IF it's a choice between those two cameras for me I'll take the iPhone.

Cameras (like smart phones) need to be judged on what they do well, not by what they can't do. I don't have to choose. I can use each one for what it's good at. And come out way ahead of those who want one camera to do everything, because there's no one camera that's the best for everything.

The biggest advantage to the phone, it's always in my pocket when I go out. That means it's worthwhile understanding what to use it for. Sure it's good to understand it's not good for the Orion Nebula, but do I really need someone to tell me that? Seriously? Were you thinking we're all complete dummies?

I'm not sure why mentioning phone cameras triggers some people so badly. Especially since all the "wow" research happening right now seems to be directed at phones.


---------

One more interesting thing about this image... Ricky sent it to me from the ridge. I was looking at it on my computer 40 minutes before they got back from the dog walk. That was just really cool.


Last edited by normhead; 11-10-2021 at 08:02 AM.
11-10-2021, 08:42 AM - 3 Likes   #47
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Eventually, smartphones will replace humans.
11-10-2021, 10:24 AM - 2 Likes   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Eventually, smartphones will replace humans.
I can think of a number of humans where a smartphone (hell, a flip phone…) would be a huge upgrade!
11-10-2021, 10:57 AM - 1 Like   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You guys are hilarious.
No one said the iPhone would take the place of my camera for every image.
But for the image posted it did fine job and I don't need better.
And the image posted is what a great many people want from their phones.

It is so funny, you post an image and say "this is good for this" and everyone says "but it's not good for this other irrelevant thing that was never mentioned."

Some of us look at a piece of photographic equipment and ask "what can I use that for." Others say "I can't use to for this, that or the other."

If someone gives me a new iPhone, I'll use it instead of my iPhone 5, for the better camera. Would I use it to shoot the Orion Nebula, probably not. Would I use a camera that would take great pictures of the Orion Nebula for snapshots like this? Not a chance. Personally, I like family pictures on hikes more than I like images of the Orion Nebula. IF it's a choice between those two cameras for me I'll take the iPhone.

Cameras (like smart phones) need to be judged on what they do well, not by what they can't do. I don't have to choose. I can use each one for what it's good at. And come out way ahead of those who want one camera to do everything, because there's no one camera that's the best for everything.

The biggest advantage to the phone, it's always in my pocket when I go out. That means it's worthwhile understanding what to use it for. Sure it's good to understand it's not good for the Orion Nebula, but do I really need someone to tell me that? Seriously? Were you thinking we're all complete dummies?

I'm not sure why mentioning phone cameras triggers some people so badly. Especially since all the "wow" research happening right now seems to be directed at phones.


---------

One more interesting thing about this image... Ricky sent it to me from the ridge. I was looking at it on my computer 40 minutes before they got back from the dog walk. That was just really cool.
You've absolutely nailed it. Phones have replaced cameras for most people, and for the types of photos most people take, they are more than adequate, image quality wise. Most people's photos nowadays only ever get looked at on a screen and posted to Facebook or whatever other website they use to share photos online.
Kristian

11-10-2021, 11:04 AM - 3 Likes   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
One more interesting thing about this image... Ricky sent it to me from the ridge. I was looking at it on my computer 40 minutes before they got back from the dog walk. That was just really cool.
I think this is one of the key points about smartphone photography -- the seamless integration with communications and sharing.

When my wife and I are on a trip somewhere, I'll take time to set up my shot(s). I might need to carefully make my way to the right spot, say, along a rocky shore, extend my tripod, compose, etc. In the meantime, my wife has taken a couple of shots of me with her phone camera, texted them to our children, and received witty comments back before I'm back on the trail. 5,000 km away from our kids.

- Craig
11-10-2021, 05:42 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
I think this is one of the key points about smartphone photography -- the seamless integration with communications and sharing.

When my wife and I are on a trip somewhere, I'll take time to set up my shot(s). I might need to carefully make my way to the right spot, say, along a rocky shore, extend my tripod, compose, etc. In the meantime, my wife has taken a couple of shots of me with her phone camera, texted them to our children, and received witty comments back before I'm back on the trail. 5,000 km away from our kids.

- Craig
There has always been place for snapshot cameras. Phones easily surpass the the 110 cameras of the past, or the throw away "vacation" cameras.
11-11-2021, 06:10 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dartmoor Dave Quote
I think we also need to include the factor that rarely gets talked about -- a camera's function as what we used to call "chest jewellery".

Once upon a time, a high percentage of the film SLRs that were sold didn't get bought because the quality of the photos was significantly better. Let's be honest: for average snapshooters of average skills, using colour negatives and a local one hour photo lab, they weren't much better. They got bought because having one hanging around your neck and displayed on your chest showed that you could afford such a luxury item.

I would suggest that, for most of the population nowadays -- or at least for most of the population under about 50 -- holding up the latest model iPhone to take a photo is a much more effective signifier of wealth and status than having a DSLR or MILC around your neck would be. So in the vast majority of use cases, for most people, an iPhone will take photos that are close enough in quality to a large sensor interchangeable lens camera that the difference is negligible. And the iPhone will be a much better way of signalling your material success in life.

THAT'S the problem that traditional camera manufacturers are up against.
Is this even remotely true for 99%+ of the population? I've rarely had a conversation about anyone else's phone. I have no idea if the guy sitting next to me in a meeting or on that Zoom call has an iPhone 7 or 11 or a Galaxy S19 or whatever. I've never witnessed anyone flashing about their phone, begging for attention because they bought the newest one. Never. My kids have hand-me-down phones or whatever was $100 or $200 at Verizon, and they've never once said they just couldn't carry it because it doesn't have the allure of the iPhone 13, and I've never seen any behavior like that from any of their high school friends.


I sometimes hear people say that electronics or whatever are usually/typically bought for prestige, not for function. But I've never witnessed this in the wild, just as a theoretical thing discussed online.

---------- Post added 11-11-21 at 08:20 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm not sure why mentioning phone cameras triggers some people so badly. Especially since all the "wow" research happening right now seems to be directed at phones.
Because it used to be that taking good quality photographs required decent equipment and a depth of knowledge and dedication to a craft and buying film and having it processed (or even better, processing it yourself in a darkroom). The barrier for entry was pretty high.


But now almost anyone can take a photograph with their iPhone or Pixel or Galaxy that is quite a lot better than any snapshot taken of me when I was a kid.


This is why the discussion on a photography forum inevitably turns to ergonomics and the process of creating and other intangibles. Because for most photographs of people and vacations and the like a newer phone being held by a novice is usually about as good and often far more convenient than a $2000 ILC with a $1000 lens on it and an experienced photographer operating it. And that makes many of the people who have worked on being a good photographer for decades upset.


Why should these people who have no idea what they're doing take photographs about as good as mine? Well, they shouldn't so I'll point out the cases where a dedicated camera/lens/photographer will be much better, even if those aren't the cases we're talking about here.


Last edited by ThorSanchez; 11-11-2021 at 06:48 AM.
11-11-2021, 09:21 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote

Because it used to be that taking good quality photographs required decent equipment and a depth of knowledge and dedication to a craft and buying film and having it processed (or even better, processing it yourself in a darkroom). The barrier for entry was pretty high.

But now almost anyone can take a photograph with their iPhone or Pixel or Galaxy that is quite a lot better than any snapshot taken of me when I was a kid.

This is why the discussion on a photography forum inevitably turns to ergonomics and the process of creating and other intangibles. Because for most photographs of people and vacations and the like a newer phone being held by a novice is usually about as good and often far more convenient than a $2000 ILC with a $1000 lens on it and an experienced photographer operating it. And that makes many of the people who have worked on being a good photographer for decades upset.

Why should these people who have no idea what they're doing take photographs about as good as mine? Well, they shouldn't so I'll point out the cases where a dedicated camera/lens/photographer will be much better, even if those aren't the cases we're talking about here.
Many of us here have been dedicated photographers for decades -- way back into the days of film. I even did it for a living for a few years back in the eighties, until that made me hate the sight of a camera.

And believe it or not, back in those days we had a range of different types of gear available and we used the format that made sense for the goal that we had in mind. My professional stuff was at the photo-journalistic end of the business, so I used a 35mm SLR for that (in fact I used three K1000s, which were fully capable of producing publishable work). For family snapshots I used an Olympus XA, which was also -- prepare to gasp in horror -- fully capable of producing publishable results when I happened to use it for that task.

Nowadays I don't own a smartphone, because I'm a cranky old loner who doesn't feel the need for people to be able to contact me whenever they want to. But I'd happily use one for photography in the sort of situations where a smartphone can produce the quality needed for that particular job.

Your assertion that smartphone cameras are only for those "who have no idea what they're doing" is incorrect. Those who know exactly what they are doing will happily use a smartphone if it's the right tool for that particular job.
11-11-2021, 09:35 AM - 1 Like   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dartmoor Dave Quote
Your assertion that smartphone cameras are only for those "who have no idea what they're doing" is incorrect. Those who know exactly what they are doing will happily use a smartphone if it's the right tool for that particular job.
It wasn't my intent to say that smartphone are only for those who don't know what they're doing, but that they enable those with limited or no photographic skills to produce pictures that a few generations ago required quite a few skills and/or good, dedicated equipment. My paragraph you quoted was tongue-in-cheek, meant to be in the voice of the disgruntled old photographer. I've been practicing and learning on Pentax ILCs for a decade, and yet a novice with an iPhone or a Pixel can often produce photos that are about as good as mine in most viewing contexts. I'd like to think I'm a bit better at framing and visualization and picking good light, but in many cases that may be a conceit.
11-11-2021, 09:52 AM - 1 Like   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
It wasn't my intent to say that smartphone are only for those who don't know what they're doing, but that they enable those with limited or no photographic skills to produce pictures that a few generations ago required quite a few skills and/or good, dedicated equipment. My paragraph you quoted was tongue-in-cheek, meant to be in the voice of the disgruntled old photographer. I've been practicing and learning on Pentax ILCs for a decade, and yet a novice with an iPhone or a Pixel can often produce photos that are about as good as mine in most viewing contexts. I'd like to think I'm a bit better at framing and visualization and picking good light, but in many cases that may be a conceit.
I misunderstood you and I'm sorry about that. I'm actually quite happy that smartphones let people (mostly members of my own family) take reasonably good photos without knowing what they are doing. Because occasionally they hand the smartphone in question to me and ask me to take a snap. . . and then they say, "What the. . . how did you do that?"

Understanding composition and light will always beat whatever smartphone algorithms anyone wants to throw at it. The fact that people with no technical skills can take halfway decent photos nowadays just gives those with an actual photographic eye the chance to show why the photographic eye is all that really counts.
11-11-2021, 11:12 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dartmoor Dave Quote
… the photographic eye is all that really counts.
Couldn’t agree more. I met someone recently who studied photography at college and a fine 24”x16” enlargement from a 35mm negative had pride of place in his hallway. Nowadays he hasn’t much time for photography but what little he does is shot on a phone camera - he had several prints on his sitting room wall. One in particular I really liked, not because it was shot on a phone, but because the photographer knew what he was seeing.
11-13-2021, 03:14 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If memory serves me well the original 5D was 12 MP and it was a professional camera. So, I'm guessing if we are going to compare, we need to compare to a 5D.
Yes, we can, of course, but this still will be not relevant as important part of pro-grade camera set is a lens... Which one you can attach to you gazylion megapixel smartphone to recreate the image quality from 5D and 300mm f/2.8 attached? Or 85mm f/1.4, depends of your subject? Beside, there is simple physics creating difference between 12 MP on 35 format sensor and same 12 MP on much smaller one...

---------- Post added 11-13-21 at 03:27 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
You and I think alike, and as far as quality of an image is concerned we agree. Nothing will beat a good DSLR/mirorless, heck even a negative film, if the objective is to view it at pixel level and/or make a large print from it. I do both of the latter things all the time and would not dream of taking a iphone to a photo-shoot.

The point I was trying to make is however that 95% of photographs are not taken with these aims in mind. They are taken with the aim of posting to SM. For that, they are perfectly suited, so much better than a DSLR for example. This is why phones are beating cameras by a country mile for image capture machines at present.
True, of course. But this is a sociological phenomenon, not a technical one...
11-13-2021, 06:16 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Apas Quote
Beside, there is simple physics creating difference between 12 MP on 35 format sensor and same 12 MP on much smaller one...
Creating a difference doesn't make one better. It just makes it different. The last wedding I shot, a number of people shot with phones. My impression was the phone images were valuable part of the collection of photos and if I were doing it the old way with print album, would have included some iPhone prints. Don't assume there's no place for phones in professional work without trying it. Just like in the old days guys would shoot the formal photos with Medium Format and candids with 35 mm.

Sometimes these things come down to not whether the camera is capable, but whether or not the guy shooting understands where it has an advantage. The iPhone the original image was posted with has three lenses, the longest of which is equivalent of 77mm. Not to shabby, even for portrait work. Whether or not you like the look is completely subjective.
11-16-2021, 09:39 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote

If someone gives me a new iPhone, I'll use it instead of my iPhone 5, for the better camera. Would I use it to shoot the Orion Nebula, probably not. Would I use a camera that would take great pictures of the Orion Nebula for snapshots like this? Not a chance. Personally, I like family pictures on hikes more than I like images of the Orion Nebula. IF it's a choice between those two cameras for me I'll take the iPhone.
On a separate note, if you are in the US, your iPhone 5 will need to be replaced very soon, due to the 3G shutdown. I know the iPhone 5 is a 4G phone, but according to the carriers, it still won’t work after the shutdown.
11-16-2021, 09:48 AM   #60
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My daughter uses her iPhone for most of her pictures on vacation. She uses the ability of the iPhone to send us decently posed and so on of her up the hill and down the vale pictures. We enjoy them immensely. If I want to send her a snap of my wife's latest crochet sampler, I usually use my phone. I just want my "kids" (they're both over 50) to see Grandma's work.

On the other hand, when she is trekking somewhere and wants souvenir, printable grade, images, she takes "the big camera" with her and uses it carefully. "The big camera" is a Pentax digital SLR and I gave he an A 70-210 for a birthday present when I moved on to my DA 55-300.

The camera and the phone are tools she uses. I used my iPhone to send an image to the wildfire reporting site so that they knew where I was talking about. A few seconds compared to downloading from the K3 and firing up the mail app.
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