[Dartmoor Dave]

My natural instinct in any confrontation is to try and calm things down rather than "front up"... But you don't know what lengths people will go to these days. Kids, even adults, carrying knives and what-not. I'm armed only with a naturally "robust" physique, a number 1 haircut, a little bit of charm and an instinct for self-preservation. I hope the efficacy of that never needs to be tested in the pursuit of photography, or else I'll have messed up badly

I used to think that being rather a large individual, who has been told on quite a few occasions that I can seem physically intimidating, was a form of passive self defence. But now I wonder if it's really more of a target on my back. A few weeks ago I was attacked for no reason at all and ended up with some cracked ribs that took a while to heal. I'd been visiting my elderly parents in the seaside town where they live to do some bits of gardening and DIY for them, and at the end of the day we decided to get a takeaway. So I walked over to the local Chinese as usual, and on the way home in darkness it happened. A large teenage boy, with gravity behind him on a downhill slope and a teenage girl in attendance, came at me for no reason at all and hit me right in the ribs with his shoulder.

I went over backwards, but luckily didn't hit my head on the wall behind me. Then I got myself upright and said to the boy, "What the. . . ?"

At which he squared himself up and did that wave of the curled fingers thing. That infantile "Come on if you think you're hard enough" routine.

Weird moment. What I really wanted to do was have a conversation about why he'd thought to do such a thing. Was he trying to impress the girl? Had I "disrespected" him by not giving him enough room on the pavement? Was I supposed to just hit him in his exposed throat and then deal with the paperwork if that caused a serious injury?

Anyway, I just called him an arsehole and walked away, which might be a disappointment to those among our membership who live in places where the social convention would be to get a gun out and shoot him. But even though I might look like a thug, I'm actually a guy who reads Virginia Woolf and Immanuel Kant and worries about ethical problems that most people wouldn't give a second thought to.

I'm not sure that any of that has got anything to do with street photography, but it was nice to get a chance to write it down.

[Pegasus53]

Turkish barbers, where have they all come from. Two have opened in our town/village in the last 12 months, traditional ear singeing and nose waxing are on the menu. Can't say I fancy it much but they are open 7 days a week, early to late.

Where have they all come from? That's all I've used/seen in the last 60+ years. Seems to go with the territory (S. London) - just like nail bars being run by orientals (before you ask - I don't use those!)

[ramseybuckeye]

I used to think that being rather a large individual, who has been told on quite a few occasions that I can seem physically intimidating, was a form of passive self defence. But now I wonder if it's really more of a target on my back. A few weeks ago I was attacked for no reason at all and ended up with some cracked ribs that took a while to heal. I'd been visiting my elderly parents in the seaside town where they live to do some bits of gardening and DIY for them, and at the end of the day we decided to get a takeaway. So I walked over to the local Chinese as usual, and on the way home in darkness it happened. A large teenage boy, with gravity behind him on a downhill slope and a teenage girl in attendance, came at me for no reason at all and hit me right in the ribs with his shoulder.

I went over backwards, but luckily didn't hit my head on the wall behind me. Then I got myself upright and said to the boy, "What the. . . ?"

At which he squared himself up and did that wave of the curled fingers thing. That infantile "Come on if you think you're hard enough" routine.

Weird moment. What I really wanted to do was have a conversation about why he'd thought to do such a thing. Was he trying to impress the girl? Had I "disrespected" him by not giving him enough room on the pavement? Was I supposed to just hit him in his exposed throat and then deal with the paperwork if that caused a serious injury?

Anyway, I just called him an arsehole and walked away, which might be a disappointment to those among our membership who live in places where the social convention would be to get a gun out and shoot him. But even though I might look like a thug, I'm actually a guy who reads Virginia Woolf and Immanuel Kant and worries about ethical problems that most people wouldn't give a second thought to.

I'm not sure that any of that has got anything to do with street photography, but it was nice to get a chance to write it down.

I'd say your response of calling him what he was put him in his place rather well, and the fact he did not pursue proves it, the girl probably cast him aside quickly too after that, if not, she deserves him.

Where have they all come from? That's all I've used/seen in the last 60+ years. Seems to go with the territory (S. London) - just like nail bars being run by orientals (before you ask - I don't use those!)

It's an interesting discussion, over here in the colonies I'm not aware of an influx of Turkish barbers, but maybe I'm just not frequenting enough barbershops. We do have a total glut of Nail Bars, and most are Asian operated. Although they are more often called Salons here, a bar is more often a drinking establishment, a pub or saloon, which is different from a salon. A bar is also a "salad bar", or pizza bar", where you go to get all you can eat, or a "buffet", which is also a piece of furniture. We colonists have butchered the language.

[BigMackCam]

Where have they all come from? That's all I've used/seen in the last 60+ years. Seems to go with the territory (S. London) - just like nail bars being run by orientals (before you ask - I don't use those!)

I lived in Surrey and then central London for many years, and yes, there were many Turkish barbers. My favourite place was actually Italian, but in my last couple of years down South I frequented a Turkish Cypriot barber near my apartment just south of London Bridge. But up here in the North East (where I've since returned), Turkish barbers were a rare thing until a few years ago. As always, we're behind the South East in our cultural development and expansion - in tonsorial matters as much as any other

---

Last edited by BigMackCam; 12-19-2021 at 04:05 PM.

[MarkJerling]

Your tale reminded me of when I was photographing my own kids (and only my own kids) at a public beach. (I may have told the tale before but can't remember if I did.)

So, picture the scene: My kids are playing in the surf. There are no strangers kids anywhere near my kids, they have that bit of beach pretty much to themselves. I'm photographing them in plain sight so I'm not hiding behind a beach umbrella or a rock. I'm literally standing there large as life. My kids are having a whale of a time playing in the breaking waves. When up marches a woman, stopping a few metres away and loudly asks me: "Do you have permission to photograph those kids?" She was doing her best "I'm a little teapot short and stout..." impersonation.

I replied, politely, and in a normal tone of voice: "They're my kids." (I felt like adding the well known two words that translate to "go away" but did not.) And carried on taking photos. She stood, a while longer, big scowl on her face, hoping, I think, that someone else would come along to join her in her crusade. Eventually she marched off.

[3by2]

Where have they all come from? That's all I've used/seen in the last 60+ years. Seems to go with the territory (S. London) - just like nail bars being run by orientals (before you ask - I don't use those!)

Maybe in that there London but not so much in the provinces

I used to have one of those. I think I gave it to one of my kids, long ago. Last time I remember using it, I was driving a 1979 Chrysler New Yorker when a drunk guy ran a stop sign and crashed into me. After I woke up (and stepped on the brake pedal before crashing into someone's living room), naturally the first thing I thought of was preservation of evidence, so I grabbed the camera and started taking pictures. It was useful in the DUI trial.
I used to teach a course called, "Personal Protection away from Home", mostly about when it would be a bad idea to use a weapon, and when it would be appropriate. My suggestion in such cases was always "keep walking, but smile and wave bye-bye as you go." Disengage.
If there's any escalation from the other guy, then that's a different issue. But most times, Turkish barbers and other people offended by your photography would rather stick by the shop, especially if they're in the middle of taking care of a customer, than chase after you. Act like you know what you're doing, and everyone will assume that you do.
Here's the real point: you didn't know that guy, you didn't know what kind of weapon he was carrying, and you didn't know whether he'd had an argument with his wife that morning and was primed for vengeance. You took a much more serious risk in interacting with an unknown guy whom you already knew to have been offended by something you'd done (rightly or wrongly doesn't matter at that point), than the risk your camera took. That's all especially true with people who are culturally different from yourself, and therefore apt to think and act in ways you're not prepared for, not knowing the ins-and-outs of that culture.

---------- Post added 2021-12-20 at 02:31 AM ----------

.... When up marches a woman, stopping a few metres away and loudly asks me: "Do you have permission to photograph those kids?" She was doing her best "I'm a little teapot short and stout..." impersonation.
....

Did you get a picture of that woman?

[MarkJerling]

Did you get a picture of that woman?

No, I figured that would only inflame her more, so I practiced the "ignore" approach.

Had she continued with her nonsense I would likely have taken her photo and told her to take a hike. But, some people are nutters so probably best that I chose the "polite indifference" approach.

[fs999]

Car washes……nail bars……Turkish Barbers…..I’m sure many of them are legitimate businesses but the sheer numbers have me questioning whether they’re all above board….hmmmm?

You forgot Turkish bath

[slartibartfast01]

Here's the real point: you didn't know that guy, you didn't know what kind of weapon he was carrying

Probably a razor.

[BigMackCam]

I used to teach a course called, "Personal Protection away from Home", mostly about when it would be a bad idea to use a weapon, and when it would be appropriate. My suggestion in such cases was always "keep walking, but smile and wave bye-bye as you go." Disengage.
If there's any escalation from the other guy, then that's a different issue. But most times, Turkish barbers and other people offended by your photography would rather stick by the shop, especially if they're in the middle of taking care of a customer, than chase after you. Act like you know what you're doing, and everyone will assume that you do.

Here's the real point: you didn't know that guy, you didn't know what kind of weapon he was carrying, and you didn't know whether he'd had an argument with his wife that morning and was primed for vengeance. You took a much more serious risk in interacting with an unknown guy whom you already knew to have been offended by something you'd done (rightly or wrongly doesn't matter at that point), than the risk your camera took. That's all especially true with people who are culturally different from yourself, and therefore apt to think and act in ways you're not prepared for, not knowing the ins-and-outs of that culture.

We all deal with situations differently, based on our in-the-moment assessment, the danger we perceive (or not, as the case may be), and our individual personalities. I'm not convinced there's a text-book "best" way to deal with them, since each situation and its actors are different. I can't profess to be especially well-versed in matters of self-defence and "the street", but I suspect that smiling, waving then walking away from someone who's angry and asking what you're doing is just as likely to antagonise them further. At the very least, it leaves the matter unresolved - and since I live in this town, I'll have to walk by that shop in future... and I don't need the guy running out after me when that happens. Plus, he's a business owner, and we were standing in a busy high street. Here in the UK, we wouldn't expect a business owner to be armed and use a weapon in public (there are many things wrong with our country, but that isn't one of them - not yet, at least). Anything's possible, of course - but it's not a situation I've heard of in all my years. I'd suggest that in this instance, the risk was quite minimal...

In any case, the matter was amicably resolved

[BigMackCam]

I used to think that being rather a large individual, who has been told on quite a few occasions that I can seem physically intimidating, was a form of passive self defence. But now I wonder if it's really more of a target on my back. A few weeks ago I was attacked for no reason at all and ended up with some cracked ribs that took a while to heal. I'd been visiting my elderly parents in the seaside town where they live to do some bits of gardening and DIY for them, and at the end of the day we decided to get a takeaway. So I walked over to the local Chinese as usual, and on the way home in darkness it happened. A large teenage boy, with gravity behind him on a downhill slope and a teenage girl in attendance, came at me for no reason at all and hit me right in the ribs with his shoulder.

I went over backwards, but luckily didn't hit my head on the wall behind me. Then I got myself upright and said to the boy, "What the. . . ?"

At which he squared himself up and did that wave of the curled fingers thing. That infantile "Come on if you think you're hard enough" routine.

Weird moment. What I really wanted to do was have a conversation about why he'd thought to do such a thing. Was he trying to impress the girl? Had I "disrespected" him by not giving him enough room on the pavement? Was I supposed to just hit him in his exposed throat and then deal with the paperwork if that caused a serious injury?

Anyway, I just called him an arsehole and walked away, which might be a disappointment to those among our membership who live in places where the social convention would be to get a gun out and shoot him. But even though I might look like a thug, I'm actually a guy who reads Virginia Woolf and Immanuel Kant and worries about ethical problems that most people wouldn't give a second thought to.

I'm not sure that any of that has got anything to do with street photography, but it was nice to get a chance to write it down.

So sorry to hear that, David. What an upsetting event Thank goodness you weren't more seriously injured. As for calling the lad an a-hole, I quote from Woolf's "Mrs Dalloway":

"it is a thousand pities never to say what one feels"

[BigMackCam]

Your tale reminded me of when I was photographing my own kids (and only my own kids) at a public beach. (I may have told the tale before but can't remember if I did.)

So, picture the scene: My kids are playing in the surf. There are no strangers kids anywhere near my kids, they have that bit of beach pretty much to themselves. I'm photographing them in plain sight so I'm not hiding behind a beach umbrella or a rock. I'm literally standing there large as life. My kids are having a whale of a time playing in the breaking waves. When up marches a woman, stopping a few metres away and loudly asks me: "Do you have permission to photograph those kids?" She was doing her best "I'm a little teapot short and stout..." impersonation.

I replied, politely, and in a normal tone of voice: "They're my kids." (I felt like adding the well known two words that translate to "go away" but did not.) And carried on taking photos. She stood, a while longer, big scowl on her face, hoping, I think, that someone else would come along to join her in her crusade. Eventually she marched off.

I'm sure there are folks who actually go out actively looking for opportunities to police situations and take the moral high-ground. What a world we live in, eh?

[Lev]

This afternoon I went for a walk around town with my Olympus Trip 35 - a camera I've owned for a few years, but never used. I hadn't planned to take photos of anything specific... this was really just an opportunity to get comfortable shooting with the camera, its viewfinder framing, zone focusing etc, and to try my first ever roll of Fomapan 400. So, I was pretty indescriminate with regard to subjects... I took some photos of Front Street (the main street), various shops, pubs, churches, a few odd little alley-ways etc. I'm sure you folks know the kind of stuff I mean. Anyway, one rule I have in my photography is that I generally don't take photos of people - especially without their permission - for a couple of reasons: (1) I don't like having my own photo taken, so I assume others will feel the same; (2) related to point 1, I don't like unnecessary confrontation... I'm no shrinking violet, but in all aspects of my life these days, I like to stay in the background, be the nice guy that no-one has any trouble with, never be the one to annoy others...

So as I'm walking down towards the bottom end of Front Street, I see a Turkish barber's shop, and through the window I see one of the barbers cutting a guy's hair. It looked like an interesting (if not particularly original) scene, and almost without thinking I lifted the camera to my eye, snapped off the shot, and walked away. After a few seconds I hear a voice behind me... "Hey!... Hey!!". I turn around, and there's the barber. He looks Turkish, or maybe Cypriot, but could be from elsewhere in that region. He definitely looks unhappy "What was that? What are you doing?", he asks, not sounding too friendly about it. "Hi there. I'm just trying out an old camera I bought and taking a few photos around town", I reply. "Why? Why this shop?", he demands. At this point, I'm thinking he could be (a) working illegally, (b) claiming benefits, yet working for cash on the side, (c) expecting his landlord to kick him out for back rent, or any number of other reasons. "I saw the shop and thought it looked cool, that's all. No other reason. It's a hobby, and I'm just trying out this old camera from the 1970s", I explain, and offer the camera to him so he can examine it. I figure the fact that it's so old and clearly not digital might convince him I'm no private investigator, and not from Immigration Enforcement or the Department of Work & Pensions, or some other government agency. He takes the camera and looks it over, at which point I'm thinking "Did I do the right thing here? He might smash it on the ground, or throw it at me" (it is, after all, fairly heavy and made of metal )... but I figure it's just an old camera, and it's not the end of the world if he breaks it. Then he smiles a little as he hands it back to me and says, "Why are you using that instead of your phone?", and we end up having a very brief but quite pleasant conversation about film cameras and film in general having a resurgence, and how I've just started developing my own film at home Finally, he says "You know, I charge for photos!", and I reply, "If it makes any money, I'll split it with you!". We shake hands, and I go on my way

It was a minor issue with a nice outcome... but it reminded me of why, as a general rule, I don't photograph people - at least, not without asking. Some folks just don't like it, or have other reasons why they don't want to be immortalised on film or digital file... and it's really none of my business what those reasons might be. Of course, I could have explained that it was perfectly legal for me to take photos of his shop with him in the window - but I don't want any friction. This is my hobby... it's for enjoyment... and it's challenging enough without having to deal with irate subjects.

Anyway, we parted in a friendly manner... but I don't think I'll be going there for a shave or haircut any time soon, though. I have my doubts about the place now

Thanks a lot for sharing!!

Regarding people's permission, recently I took a picture of a fireman who in some moment asked me why I was shooting him so I stopped and moved on others but right after I received their permissions. Believe or not, best picture for that day was first one, taken without permission! Sometimes you have to break your own rule to achieve something. I'm not saying I made something very special, but at least for me, this first one was the best.



Having said that, working with people is extremely difficult, starting from fast and uncontrolled kids to people who restrict themselves to be photographed. I imagine walking in streets and asking every one for permission every time you see a good moment. I also imagine your reaction on his voice "Hey!... Hey!!" Outcomes are ton! "Hi there. I'm just trying out an old camera I bought and taking a few photos around town" is one of them Do you know what I have answered to that fireman why I was taking pictures? I said because I'm a photographer!! This guy probably processing this answer in his mind from that moment on. So back to your subject, I think he works there illegally I'm also glad that you are not from Immigration Enforcement or the Department of Work & Pensions and you are just another, but honored pentaxian!

Thanks god everything went great!

---
Almost forgot to say that you've got very nice old camera! I like that!

[Photos-by-Chas]

If the photo turns out good, take it back to show him how it turned out. He may like to have a copy to post in his shop as a little advertisement. he may offer a free haircut or shave and you could srtart a new friendship.
\