Do we need fast lens to produce nice bokeh ?

lotech · 01-17-2022, 04:26 AM

Many photographer will want a fast portiate lens to produce nice bokeh and blurry background, and those lenses are bulky and expensive, but do they know fast lens is not the only way to it ?

As far as I understand nice bokeh can be produced with any lenses with round aperture blade not necessarily wide open, such as the relatively cheap Russian Jupiter 9 85mm/f2 having an uncommon 15 rounded blades aperture, when stopped down it can produce very nice image with rounded bokeh. While the background will not be very blurry due to increased DoF, we could change that by move closer to the subject. If the lens does not focus close, then what about the 100mm DFA macro, it also has rounded aperture blades, or cheaper alternative the Russian Jupiter 37 135mm which has a 12 blades aperture, and the Jupiter 11 which has 15 rounded blades as well, extension tube may be used depends on how close we want, face or head and shoulders. Of course those are old lenses can not be compared with modern fast lenses in terms of IQ, but for portiate we don't need tack sharp image, so they will do at much lower cost.

biz-engineer · 01-17-2022, 04:32 AM

Bkeh can be produced by defocusing a lens, any lens.

lotech · 01-17-2022, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Bkeh can be produced by defocusing a lens, any lens.

That may take a major surgery

biz-engineer · 01-17-2022, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by lotech

That may take a major surgery

Not at all. Disable camera AF, turn the lens focus ring manually with live view or DoF preview until the rendered bokeh is according to taste. I have very nice bokeh pictures made with the D-FA 28-105 at f/8.

lotech · 01-17-2022, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Not at all. Disable camera AF, turn the lens focus ring manually with live view or DoF preview until the rendered bokeh is according to taste. I have very nice bokeh pictures made with the D-FA 28-105 at f/8.

I thought you mean to slightly defocus some of the elements to turn the lens into soft focus lens, sorry I don't get your point of intentional mis-focus the whole image to get the bokeh you want.

**jersey** · 01-17-2022, 05:28 AM

Bokeh is a matter of taste so it is hard to say what you will find as nice bokeh. But in general you do not need fast aperture to get bokeh, wide aperture is giving you only shallow DoF and more light.

All you need is to place you object inside of DoF and background (or foreground) out of it. How you do it is just a matter of technique. You can do as @biz-engineer said and use manual focus, you can move your object closer or farther to the background, you can stack images etc. I have some flower photos taken at f6 and f8 that are completely separated from background (it is "flat", single color).

lotech · 01-17-2022, 05:56 AM

Originally posted by jersey

Bokeh is a matter of taste so it is hard to say what you will find as nice bokeh. But in general you do not need fast aperture to get bokeh, wide aperture is giving you only shallow DoF and more light.

All you need is to place you object inside of DoF and background (or foreground) out of it. How you do it is just a matter of technique. You can do as @biz-engineer said and use manual focus, you can move your object closer or farther to the background, you can stack images etc. I have some flower photos taken at f6 and f8 that are completely separated from background (it is "flat", single color).

I believe hyperfocal focusing is another word for it, I'vnt tried that for bokeh adjustment thanks for the tip, and I post this in the general photography section so focus stacking is not a solution for it.

bdery · 01-17-2022, 06:12 AM - **7 Likes**

Originally posted by lotech

nice bokeh

It's a problem of definitions.

Bokeh refers to the quality of the background blur, its texture, transitions, shapes, etc.

Depth of field, often desired to be shallow, is the distance range that's not seen as in-focus. It's mostly influenced by the focal length and aperture, but also slightly by the pixels size.

People often refer to "bokeh" when they actually mean "shallow DOF".

To get pleasing bokeh, you need a lens capable of delivering it, regardless of its maximum aperture. To get shallow DOF, you need a wide aperture and possibly a longer focal length.

lotech · 01-17-2022, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by bdery

It's a problem of definitions.

Bokeh refers to the quality of the background blur, its texture, transitions, shapes, etc.

Depth of field, often desired to be shallow, is the distance range that's not seen as in-focus. It's mostly influenced by the focal length and aperture, but also slightly by the pixels size.

People often refer to "bokeh" when they actually mean "shallow DOF".

To get pleasing bokeh, you need a lens capable of delivering it, regardless of its maximum aperture. To get shallow DOF, you need a wide aperture and possibly a longer focal length.

Yes sorry for the misleading title...

**luftfluss** · 01-17-2022, 07:34 AM

Don't need a fast lens, just a photographer who knows what they're doing.

**acoufap** · 01-17-2022, 08:08 AM

Answer by image ...

KP | DA55-300PLM | 300mm | f/9

**Serkevan** · 01-17-2022, 09:23 AM - **1 Like**

I have a good handful of portraits taken with the FA 77 Limited at f/9 to f/11 with quite lovely bokeh.
The depth of field was sufficient to get the entire person in sharp focus, and subject-to-background distance did the rest.
So, long story short, no, fast is not needed. You just need a lens that can maintain a pleasing OOF rendering at small apertures

**jersey** · 01-17-2022, 09:44 AM

I am great fan silky smooth bokeh

something like this:

300mm at f6.3:

200mm at f6.3:

BUT here I would love to have something around f2 or lower, 15mm at f4:

So it is a matter or personal taste.

eles · 01-17-2022, 10:29 AM

This page has a nice discussion of "quantity" vs "quality" of out of focus areas in an image. Widest aperture relative to focal length determines "quantity":

Bokeh Explained - phillipreeve.net

Wheatfield · 01-17-2022, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Bkeh can be produced by defocusing a lens, any lens.

While technically true, if one has to knock the subject out of focus to aquire bokeh, the image isn't going to succeed.

A faster lens will knock backgrounds (and forgrounds) out of focus sooner, which allows the photographer to work in more cramped spaces.

The studio I worked at eventually grew to the point that we had a huge shooting room. One of the guys liked to put his portrait subjects about 20 feet off the background and shoot with an 80-200/2.8 lens at close to the long end.
We also had a much smaller room for a while when the business was young which made something like an 85/1.4 almost a necessity.

01-17-2022, 04:26 AM	#1
lotech Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 961	Do we need fast lens to produce nice bokeh ? Many photographer will want a fast portiate lens to produce nice bokeh and blurry background, and those lenses are bulky and expensive, but do they know fast lens is not the only way to it ? As far as I understand nice bokeh can be produced with any lenses with round aperture blade not necessarily wide open, such as the relatively cheap Russian Jupiter 9 85mm/f2 having an uncommon 15 rounded blades aperture, when stopped down it can produce very nice image with rounded bokeh. While the background will not be very blurry due to increased DoF, we could change that by move closer to the subject. If the lens does not focus close, then what about the 100mm DFA macro, it also has rounded aperture blades, or cheaper alternative the Russian Jupiter 37 135mm which has a 12 blades aperture, and the Jupiter 11 which has 15 rounded blades as well, extension tube may be used depends on how close we want, face or head and shoulders. Of course those are old lenses can not be compared with modern fast lenses in terms of IQ, but for portiate we don't need tack sharp image, so they will do at much lower cost.

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01-17-2022, 04:32 AM	#2
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,135	Bkeh can be produced by defocusing a lens, any lens.

01-17-2022, 04:52 AM	#3
lotech Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 961 Original Poster	Originally posted by biz-engineer Bkeh can be produced by defocusing a lens, any lens. That may take a major surgery

01-17-2022, 04:59 AM	#4
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,135	Originally posted by lotech That may take a major surgery Not at all. Disable camera AF, turn the lens focus ring manually with live view or DoF preview until the rendered bokeh is according to taste. I have very nice bokeh pictures made with the D-FA 28-105 at f/8.

01-17-2022, 05:24 AM	#5
lotech Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 961 Original Poster	Originally posted by biz-engineer Not at all. Disable camera AF, turn the lens focus ring manually with live view or DoF preview until the rendered bokeh is according to taste. I have very nice bokeh pictures made with the D-FA 28-105 at f/8. I thought you mean to slightly defocus some of the elements to turn the lens into soft focus lens, sorry I don't get your point of intentional mis-focus the whole image to get the bokeh you want.

01-17-2022, 05:28 AM	#6
jersey Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: 3City agglomeration Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,644	Bokeh is a matter of taste so it is hard to say what you will find as nice bokeh. But in general you do not need fast aperture to get bokeh, wide aperture is giving you only shallow DoF and more light. All you need is to place you object inside of DoF and background (or foreground) out of it. How you do it is just a matter of technique. You can do as @biz-engineer said and use manual focus, you can move your object closer or farther to the background, you can stack images etc. I have some flower photos taken at f6 and f8 that are completely separated from background (it is "flat", single color).

01-17-2022, 05:56 AM	#7
lotech Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 961 Original Poster	Originally posted by jersey Bokeh is a matter of taste so it is hard to say what you will find as nice bokeh. But in general you do not need fast aperture to get bokeh, wide aperture is giving you only shallow DoF and more light. All you need is to place you object inside of DoF and background (or foreground) out of it. How you do it is just a matter of technique. You can do as @biz-engineer said and use manual focus, you can move your object closer or farther to the background, you can stack images etc. I have some flower photos taken at f6 and f8 that are completely separated from background (it is "flat", single color). I believe hyperfocal focusing is another word for it, I'vnt tried that for bokeh adjustment thanks for the tip, and I post this in the general photography section so focus stacking is not a solution for it.

01-17-2022, 06:12 AM - 7 Likes	#8
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,072	Originally posted by lotech nice bokeh It's a problem of definitions. Bokeh refers to the quality of the background blur, its texture, transitions, shapes, etc. Depth of field, often desired to be shallow, is the distance range that's not seen as in-focus. It's mostly influenced by the focal length and aperture, but also slightly by the pixels size. People often refer to "bokeh" when they actually mean "shallow DOF". To get pleasing bokeh, you need a lens capable of delivering it, regardless of its maximum aperture. To get shallow DOF, you need a wide aperture and possibly a longer focal length.

01-17-2022, 06:25 AM	#9
lotech Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 961 Original Poster	Originally posted by bdery It's a problem of definitions. Bokeh refers to the quality of the background blur, its texture, transitions, shapes, etc. Depth of field, often desired to be shallow, is the distance range that's not seen as in-focus. It's mostly influenced by the focal length and aperture, but also slightly by the pixels size. People often refer to "bokeh" when they actually mean "shallow DOF". To get pleasing bokeh, you need a lens capable of delivering it, regardless of its maximum aperture. To get shallow DOF, you need a wide aperture and possibly a longer focal length. Yes sorry for the misleading title...

01-17-2022, 07:34 AM	#10
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,650	Don't need a fast lens, just a photographer who knows what they're doing.

01-17-2022, 08:08 AM	#11
acoufap Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Munich, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,579	Answer by image ... KP \| DA55-300PLM \| 300mm \| f/9

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01-17-2022, 09:23 AM - 1 Like	#12
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,762	I have a good handful of portraits taken with the FA 77 Limited at f/9 to f/11 with quite lovely bokeh. The depth of field was sufficient to get the entire person in sharp focus, and subject-to-background distance did the rest. So, long story short, no, fast is not needed. You just need a lens that can maintain a pleasing OOF rendering at small apertures

01-17-2022, 09:44 AM	#13
jersey Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: 3City agglomeration Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,644	I am great fan silky smooth bokeh something like this: 300mm at f6.3: 200mm at f6.3: BUT here I would love to have something around f2 or lower, 15mm at f4: So it is a matter or personal taste.

01-17-2022, 10:29 AM	#14
eles Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Posts: 40	This page has a nice discussion of "quantity" vs "quality" of out of focus areas in an image. Widest aperture relative to focal length determines "quantity": Bokeh Explained - phillipreeve.net

01-17-2022, 10:46 AM	#15
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 14,837	Originally posted by biz-engineer Bkeh can be produced by defocusing a lens, any lens. While technically true, if one has to knock the subject out of focus to aquire bokeh, the image isn't going to succeed. A faster lens will knock backgrounds (and forgrounds) out of focus sooner, which allows the photographer to work in more cramped spaces. The studio I worked at eventually grew to the point that we had a huge shooting room. One of the guys liked to put his portrait subjects about 20 feet off the background and shoot with an 80-200/2.8 lens at close to the long end. We also had a much smaller room for a while when the business was young which made something like an 85/1.4 almost a necessity.