[Michael Piziak]

Yes, I just rewatched the Bill Cunningham docu again this weekend.
"Everybody Street" that is available on YT is also well worth a watch.

I just started watching "Everybody Street." I was curious as to whom it was about. I found on the net, that "Everybody Street"... "highlights the lives and work of New York's iconic street photographers and the unparalleled city that has inspired them for decades." Source: IMDB


It certainly on my must watch list. In fact, I'm going to watch it after I finish watching the BBC documentary on Vivian Maiers.


And, I have also acquired "Bill Cunningham," which I will also watch! Thanks for these wonderful documentary/film suggestions! Oh, FYI, "Bill Cunningham" is described by IMDB as "A profile of the noted and extraordinarily cheerful veteran New York City fashion photographer."


Regards,


Michael

[clackers]

I believe I explained that she died destitute. Also, in my original post, I wrote, "Furthermore, I don't want to give the impression that she lived in poverty during the majority of her life. - although she was far from rich." I would have elaborated in the title that she died poor, but only so many characters are allowed in the title. Also, I'd like to note, that I actually got the word "destitute" from the Wikipedia article that explains that in her old and dying days, she grew destitute and was about to be evicted from her apartment (when children that she had been a nanny to stepped in and helped her out).

She is one of my favorite photographers, and I would never disparage her - my post is intended to honor and bring attention to her great achievements.

Great photographer, great docco about her (albeit with an agenda to push - the maker is the disputed owner of her photos, and enriching her reputation increases their value).

To me, the film suggested that in addition to OCD (the hoarding of newspapers, et al) she had mental health problems throughout her life. She could never have been employable as a mainstream photographer, despite her eye for a shot and persistence. Perhaps she should be the Patron Saint of Amateur Photography.

Ultimately, the film shows she was not employable as a nanny, either.

Oh, +1 for the Bill Cunningham bio, too. We just won't see the likes of him again. The wife of a college buddy of mine worked for the Times and felt privileged to every now and again be in the same elevator as him.

[Michael Piziak]

Great photographer, great docco about her (albeit with an agenda to push - the maker is the disputed owner of her photos, and enriching her reputation increases their value).

To me, the film suggested that in addition to OCD (the hoarding of newspapers, et al) she had mental health problems throughout her life. She could never have been employable as a mainstream photographer, despite her eye for a shot and persistence. Perhaps she should be the Patron Saint of Amateur Photography.

Ultimately, the film shows she was not employable as a nanny, either.

Oh, +1 for the Bill Cunningham bio, too. We just won't see the likes of him again. The wife of a college buddy of mine worked for the Times and felt privileged to every now and again be in the same elevator as him.

Yes. Although I said I would not disparage her, the film does reveal a dark side of Vivian. And I may be disparaging her with the comments I'm about to make, but the comments are based on what was revealed about her in the film. She was a damaged person - some of the grown ups revealed what she did to them when they were children. Some of the children were clearly abused by her & they spoke about how something very bad must have happened to her as a child to do the things that she did to them. Nothing sexual in nature, but verbal and physical abuse of the children in her care occurred. What she did to some of those children was likely a continuance of some type of viscous cycle that was perpetuated by what ever evil thing had occurred to her. Furthermore, she definitely had a mental illness that grew worse over the years - which included schizophrenic tendencies and being a recluse. She certainly should not have been a nanny. I have always believed that people shouldn't speak ill of the dead, but then again those grown adults had a right to speak about these things. While we can respect her as a great artist, I think it is important for the light to be shown on what should not be respected about her.

[clackers]

Yes. Although I said I would not disparage her, the film does reveal a dark side of Vivian. And I may be disparaging her with the comments I'm about to make, but the comments are based on what was revealed about her in the film. She was a damaged person - some of the grown ups revealed what she did to them when they were children. Some of the children were clearly abused by her & they spoke about how something very bad must have happened to her as a child to do the things that she did to them. Nothing sexual in nature, but verbal and physical abuse of the children in her care occurred. What she did to some of those children was likely a continuance of some type of viscous cycle that was perpetuated by what ever evil thing had occurred to her. Furthermore, she definitely had a mental illness that grew worse over the years - which included schizophrenic tendencies and being a recluse. She certainly should not have been a nanny. I have always believed that people shouldn't speak ill of the dead, but then again those grown adults had a right to speak about these things. While we can respect her as a great artist, I think it is important for the light to be shown on what should not be respected about her.

I totally agree, Michael, it seems fashionable to overlook defects in ideological heroes (she can be seen as a woman equalling the achievements of esteemed male photographers) but that seems to me immature thinking.

The truth is that 'role models' are real people, and real people have flaws. Let's not elevate them into something they're not.

As Nelson Mandela declared - 'I am not a saint, unless you think of a saint as a sinner who keeps on trying.'

For an entirely different kind of photographer I recommend "Smash His Camera" about the infamous paparazzo Ron Galella.

[Michael Piziak]

For an entirely different kind of photographer I recommend "Smash His Camera" about the infamous paparazzo Ron Galella.

Cool. I'm acquiring it now.

---------- Post added 03-24-22 at 09:58 AM ----------

I bought the video "Finding Vivian Maier" (as a digital asset) on Amazon UK in 2019, after finding out about it from another forum member. I've watched it several times since, and it's become one of my favourite photography-related films. Ms Maier was a fascinating individual, flawed (like most of us) but very talented, and the discovery of her unpublished work and subsequent project to catalogue and exhibit it is equally fascinating

Would do you think about the older man that knew her, that said he had a masters in linguisitics, and said that he did his masters dissertation on French linguistics and that she absolutely did not speak with a French accent - and he gave reasons why not.
I think he is wrong. In this documentary, and the one from the BBC, it clearly tells about how she had roots in France and was over there many times as a child - even had family still over there (cousins). In one of the films, it spoke about how she would sit with a friend/friends that spoke French and speak French with them. It's mentioned in the BBC documentary, that in NY City, Vivian lived with her mother and another French woman (whom was a photographer and perhaps influenced her) - so yet again, more proofe that she knew how to speak French and that her accent was authenticate.

---------- Post added 03-24-22 at 10:06 AM ----------

I totally agree, Michael, it seems fashionable to overlook defects in ideological heroes (she can be seen as a woman equalling the achievements of esteemed male photographers) but that seems to me immature thinking.

The truth is that 'role models' are real people, and real people have flaws. Let's not elevate them into something they're not.

As Nelson Mandela declared - 'I am not a saint, unless you think of a saint as a sinner who keeps on trying.'

Yes, I agree.
I also think, no matter how great her photographs were artistically, they did not overshadow, or cancel out in some way, the wicked things she did. Nor was whatever bad thing that may have happened to her as a child, nor did that excuse such behavior. I know most people agree with these statements...

[Michael Piziak]

Back to positives about Vivian, that we can comment on or even learn from. One of which, was on the BBC documentary, it said that, unlike many photographers, she would "take just one shot and move on, her hit rate waa phenomenal."

I think this is something that can be learned from. I also think that digital has ruined this concept for many of us, as we don't feel like we're paying for each photo, as Vivian spent most of her money on film. But as digital camera users, even if we take a dozen shots of one object/subject, I think we can still apply this concept and go through those dozen shots and pick out just one (maybe 2) shots to post process and keep. I have actually been using this "concept" for quite a while. It goes along with a concept that I heard another female photographer mention years ago, which is that she only keeps the photos that she thinks is framable.


In the BBC film, it also mentions that Vivian taught one of the children that she cared for, she taught them about the importance of the contrast between light and dark - even a more important concept when working with black and white, as the great majority of her shots were.

There's something else I would like to mention. I know that there are lawsuits relating to the ownership of the rights to these photos, as she does have relatives in France. What bothers me, is that the few men that own these photos, of which there are an estimated 150,000 to 300,000 photos (negatives), what bothers me is that none of these men have put many of the photos on display. For example, the official website (if there can truly be an official one between these men, this website (http://www.vivianmaier.com) has so few images that it is really appalling. I believe what drives this, is these men are selling the photos (I will buy the 275 page book, so that I get to see many more of these photos) and use it as a coffee table book. Why can't these men place many many photos on their websites about her? Seriously, the photos can be reduced in resoution/file size so that they could be unusable for people to try to steal to print, etc... I know there are other artists, that their entire works, or nearly all works, are on websites. I would personally like to see Vivian's photos on the website of the Library of Congress.

---

Last edited by Michael Piziak; 03-24-2022 at 03:19 PM.

[leekil]

She had thousands of dollars in uncashed checks in the storage as well - so if she was destitute, it wasn't entirely straightforward.

[Michael Piziak]

She had thousands of dollars in uncashed checks in the storage as well - so if she was destitute, it wasn't entirely straightforward.

One wonders if her mental illness, which got progressively worse in old age as it usually does, one wonders if that had an impact on her not cashing those checks. Do you think, perhaps, she simply forgot about the checks in old age? A pack rat like her, one would think, if they could find the $ to keep paying the rent on their storage building(s), then they certainly would - (?)...

I'd like to speak about Street Photography a little:


I just started watching the film/documentary on Bill Cunningham. I have only got like a few minutes into it and assume he is a street photographer.
I would like to do more street photographer - especially since someone, in one of my other threads, suggested that the articulated screen could be used at waste level (much like Vivian Maiers used or Rolleiflex camera to take pictures that are less intrusive to the subject and to the photographer's feelings of intruding).


Something about street photography. I think some people are "fortunate," if they really like the genre, they are fortunate to live in or near a big city or very urban area. I speak to this from experience. My town, population of roughly 17,000 people, simply doesn't lend itself extremely well to the genre. Once, I intentionally went on a photo op to take such photos. There just aren't a lot of photo opportunities in a smaller town. This is just my opinion and perhaps I'm not trying hard enough. I'm also not well educated on street photography - I need to see more documentaries and do some reading on it. I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.

I may start a thread on street photography - for peeps to submit their photos. I did a quick search and didn't see any threads on it - unless I missed it...


Regards,

Michael

Addendum: I'm 12 minutes into the documentary about Bill Cunningham. I can understand that shooting with film is retro & some argue that it has an image quality about it that is unique from digital. He's also an old man, and perhaps stuck in his film ways. But someone that shoots as many, so so so many shots every day, I simply really don't understand why someone like him won't shoot digital. I don't know who's paying for all that film and paying to get it developed - surely his newspaper employer or perhaps he would change his ways. Perhaps later on in this documentary he will explain why he stays with film. I wish someone could make me understand why they think he does....

[leekil]

It sort of depends on how you think of "street photography" - the classical model is in big cities, but you can do candid photography out on the street in smaller towns as well. Though it might require that you have a "downtown" area, though potentially strip mall also have photo opportunities.

[BigMackCam]

Would do you think about the older man that knew her, that said he had a masters in linguisitics, and said that he did his masters dissertation on French linguistics and that she absolutely did not speak with a French accent - and he gave reasons why not.
I think he is wrong. In this documentary, and the one from the BBC, it clearly tells about how she had roots in France and was over there many times as a child - even had family still over there (cousins). In one of the films, it spoke about how she would sit with a friend/friends that spoke French and speak French with them. It's mentioned in the BBC documentary, that in NY City, Vivian lived with her mother and another French woman (whom was a photographer and perhaps influenced her) - so yet again, more proofe that she knew how to speak French and that her accent was authenticate.

Whether her accent was or wasn't French, and whether-or-not she could speak (any of) the language, what she projected was a combination of the real Vivian Maier and an image intended to influence others' view of her, or how she thought of herself. That's true of us all to a greater or lesser extent. Consciously and/or subconsciously, we present a modified version of ourselves (sometimes more than one version, according to different situations) - to appear more interesting, confident, intelligent, successful; to exaggerate or hide elements of our character or lives, and a whole bunch of other reasons (indeed, social media has turned this quite normal social behaviour into an unhealthy preoccupation for some).

Whatever the external face of Maier, internally she was complex - as most of us are - and probably impossible to fathom fully... but I'd like to think we caught more than a glimpse of the real person through her discovered work...

[Michael Piziak]

I bought the video "Finding Vivian Maier" (as a digital asset) on Amazon UK in 2019, after finding out about it from another forum member. I've watched it several times since, and it's become one of my favourite photography-related films. Ms Maier was a fascinating individual, flawed (like most of us) but very talented, and the discovery of her unpublished work and subsequent project to catalogue and exhibit it is equally fascinating

Two other favourite films of mine are "Bill Cunningham New York", about the legendary NY fashion / society / street photographer, and "Looking for Light: Jane Bown", about one of my favourite portrait photographers. As with "Finding Vivian Maier", I own these and re-watch them from time-to-time. Each very different, but all of them equally fascinating, illuminating and endearing...

I finished watching the one about Bill Cunningham. It was an enjoyable view and thanks for suggesting it. If anyone has other films to suggest, please do, as I really enjoy watching these videos about photographers. Mr. Cunningham was certainly an interesting photographer. While I want to get into street photography more, one of his experiences had an impact on my thoughts about it. He was photographing 2 women, walking down the street, and they yelled at him, "Don't take a picture of us..." followed by "I'll break that F$$@# camera.....[in audible]."
That's what concerns me about the genre. Although it's perfectly legal to take someone's photo in public, there does exist a certain concern that the person(s) that your photographing may not want it done. I do have thoughts that the picture doesn't 100% belong to me - that some of it still belongs to them. The phrases "Take my picture" & words "my picture" certainly convey a certain belonging of the picture to the person that it is taken of.

I mentioned this in another thread. When I took this picture, at 300mm, I felt that both she & I felt "intrusion [& surprise] - " & it has just as much affect on me as it does/did on her, in my opinion. I was actually sitting in the back seat of a car, thinking I was fairly well hidden, but apparently not... It takes a different type person, like Mr. Cunningham, to do street photography, just a few feet away from people with a 50mm lens... Of course, places like N.Y. City may lend themselves better to such type of photography as citizens are more use to street photography & the mere # of people lends itself to the photographer camouflaging within the crowd...

As I said in the other thread when you posted this photo - seeing someone in the back of a car training a zoom lense on me would also elicit a WTF? reaction.
If you want to practice street photography go to a tourist filled place where everyone is too busy taking their own photos to notice you and maybe use a less conspicuous camera

[robgski]

Back to positives about Vivian, that we can comment on or even learn from. One of which, was on the BBC documentary, it said that, unlike many photographers, she would "take just one shot and move on, her hit rate waa phenomenal."

We should all strive to be that accurate in determining where to be and when to press the shutter, in many ways, photography is lie expert marksmanship

I may start a thread on street photography - for peeps to submit their photos. I did a quick search and didn't see any threads on it - unless I missed it...

There is a group here on PF I like themed groups because they don't sink to the last page of the thread pages. Hopefully spring will allow me to submit more images to this group as well.

One wonders if her mental illness, which got progressively worse in old age as it usually does, one wonders if that had an impact on her not cashing those checks. Do you think, perhaps, she simply forgot about the checks in old age? A pack rat like her, one would think, if they could find the $ to keep paying the rent on their storage building(s), then they certainly would

I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to me that a key feature of mental illness is irrational and illogical behavior, so what "makes sense" to most of is to them irrational and illogical. More to the point, mental illness often replaces external rational logic with its own wickedly rational internal logic. If you've seen the movie "A Beautiful Mind", it offers an example of such an internal logic.
It is often tragic, especially as many of those who suffer from mental illness are often isolated from friends and family so have even less chance of outside assistance, and living in a large city makes that isolation even more possible.

I think some people are "fortunate," if they really like the genre, they are fortunate to live in or near a big city or very urban area. I speak to this from experience. My town, population of roughly 17,000 people, simply doesn't lend itself extremely well to the genre.

You are using that as an excuse not to try, IMO. I live in an even smaller town, but I find that if I make an effort, and pay attention to the day to day routine rhythms, or special events (the 4th of July parade, for example, the fish-fry for charity, etc) most importantly just getting out of the house and being in the town, I can get some good images.,

When I took this picture, at 300mm, I felt that both she & I felt "intrusion [& surprise]

I agree, because it looks more like a surveillance image than anything else.
Think to yourself, "Why am I taking this picture, what is interesting about this scene or subject?" Replay the scene in your mind, was there anything that occurred before or after this image was taken that could have made the image more interesting, conveyed some feeling, or made a connection?

[lesmore49]

I've seen images taken by Vivian Maier and watched a documentary about her life . Some very good photos taken by her, over the years.

I have rarely bought books by photographers, but one that I did was by famed professional photographer Alfred Eisenstaedt. Unfortunately I bought the book back in the '70's and cannot recall the name of it, and then....misplaced some years ago.

Not very helpful, I realize.

But I did learn about lighting and photography from Eisenstadt's book...and perhaps more importantly to me , info about events of his life...one in particular when he took a photograph of Joseph Goebbels ...at the height of his power .....and Goebbels did not want his photo...taken, confirmed by the expression on this Goebbels' face in the photo.

One of the things that I do recall was that Mr. Eisenstaedt ...said he learned a lot about available light techniques...by going to Art Museums in Europe when he was young, and just looking and learning about working with available lighting....from the work of famous European masters. Good advice...why not learn from examining what true experts use.