[biz-engineer]

As the topic of this thread is comparing keeper rate between cameras for a given photographer and genre, did you try with another brand? If so did the rate improve?

I was provided an XT2 for testing, the difference in AF performance was shocking (like night and day) compared to K1. But for me APSC IQ isn't good enough for indoors, because indoors sports require fast shutter speeds, thus ISO 1600-3200 @ 200mm f/2.8-f/4. Guess why Canon 1D series and Nikon D4/5 made their pros lines FF ~24Mpixel with 300 2.8 glass.. there was a reason. Anyway, that has to be my last post, because you can only discuss seriously with folk who are shooting in same conditions and are objective enough to make the technical discussion worth it (no brand bias, no brand protecting agenda mixed up in the technical discussion). Of course you can also shoot sports with a Takumar and be lucky to get one good shot. It's the same like for the discussions about how many megapixels you need, some people will tell you you can print 100 feet wide print from a smartphone image, and yes you can if you ignore quality. After the "Pentax gets more keepers video", the same youtuber posted a video about him trying to sell his Pentax lenses, if the Pentax gets more keepers, I don't get his logic trying to sell his Pentax lenses, it would have made sense if he made a video about selling his Canon kit. Each camera system has its strengths and weaknesses, and it helps to be aware of those strength and weaknesses, use the strengths , avoid or cope with the weaknesses. Enough ink spent.

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Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-20-2022 at 10:40 PM.

[Joetitch]

IIRC it was lenses he did not use sufficiently. Anyway you have not answered my question. I am not a blind pentaxian yes other cameras can do things better. It was a genuine query as to if you were more or less able with some other camera to achieve your desired outcome. Just complaining that you couldn't get the results you wanted without the desire to possibly learn something new in a genuine open discussion is disappointing. It seems that you are not happy with your K1 that it doesn't perform like a $10000 camera.

[Rondec]

Stick shift vs manual transmission comes to mind. 90% of stolen cars are manual. Not because a manual is better but thieves can't drive a stick shift.

I get better photos with jpg than raw and Photoshop needs to be qualified like stolen cars.

I think you mean automatic. I'm not sure about the statistics on stolen vehicles. In the US, only 4 percent of new cars sold are manual transmission, so the chances of a thief coming on a manual transmission car are probably about 4 or 5 out of a hundred. Do Manual Transmissions Really Deter Thieves From Stealing Your Car? | CarBuzz

[Wheatfield]

I'm afraid your stats simply don't match Lee's.

He got 92% and 94%, and the 94% was Pentax.

He knows what he's doing.

I watched his video. Nothing I saw there makes me think he was pushing the cameras to the limit, and frankly, a 2% difference in keeper rate is a fluctuation, not some earth shattering number. So let's call it a draw in the scenario he chose to show, which was pretty slow moving for the most part. A softball test is not really a test. Give me a Grade 4 math test and I'll bet I can get 94% as well.
It proves nothing.
What is the keeper rate if the bikes are moving 90° towards the camera at speed, say 100KPH? That's a decent AF test, some dirt bikes riding through a forest at a few KPH, not so much.
My K1 won't keep up with my Rottweiler running towards me, and that is a dog not noted for being an especially fast runner. A K3III might do better, certainly I would hope it does, but if it will keep up with a Rottie, how about a Saluki or a Deerhound?
I was having this exact same discussion on the PDML about a decade ago, and I was staunchly defending Pentax AF. A friend in Ontario sent me a picture of one of her adult Terveruns running directly towards the camera. The Belgian Shepherd is a fast dog. We had a sibling of the one in said friend's picture. It ran circles around my Rottie, something my Pentax couldn't keep up with. Every whisker on the dog's snout was tack sharp, something I could only dream about capturing.
Her camera? Whatever Canon EOS1 that was current at the time.
The point is, anyone saying Pentax AF is as good as it gets based on a softball test is delusional.
Pentax has it's strengths, the lenses are excellent, I still believe they are, overall, the best in the business, the colour palette is better than most, the files are easy to work with, and the ergonomics are spectacular.
Let's not pretend the AF is in any way comparable to the best that is out there from the other manufacturers. Spreading that around is disinformation.

---------- Post added Sep 21st, 2022 at 10:51 AM ----------

I could get 8-12 "sellers" from a 24 exposure roll. No AF. Manual everything. Praktica L camera and 135mm Sears M42 lens.
The most popular photos were always action shots from basketball games. Everyone loved seeing their kids in the papers! Just set up in the end court and take pics when the action came to me. Get one team first half, second team next half, have pics to sell to two newspapers! I hardly even moved around. Set focus into a good zone for my flash (110v shoe mount primitive strobe, recharge squeal could be heard far away!).

Football was harder because small town field lights aren't very bright and it's too far for flash. I could get some good sideline pics though. Track events were easy in the sunlight. Graduations, etc.

This describes perfectly my experience shooting fencing with a Spotmatic II. Nice predictable action moving at 180° to the camera. All I had to do was make sure I pushed the button at the right time which did take some practice. Focusing wasn't part of the equation.

---------- Post added Sep 21st, 2022 at 10:55 AM ----------

I think you mean automatic. I'm not sure about the statistics on stolen vehicles. In the US, only 4 percent of new cars sold are manual transmission, so the chances of a thief coming on a manual transmission car are probably about 4 or 5 out of a hundred. Do Manual Transmissions Really Deter Thieves From Stealing Your Car? | CarBuzz

My dealer joked one day as we were watching a service tech trying to move my wife's stick shift car (and failing miserably) that the stick shift is the greatest deterrent to automobile theft out there.

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Last edited by Wheatfield; 09-21-2022 at 10:29 AM.

[clackers]

Spreading that around is disinformation..

IMHO, it is you spreading disinformation, Wheatfield.

Your claim that Pentax is inferior to others in your cherry picked z direction was completely disproved by science years ago. Your inability to take a picture of a dog is on *you*.

This controlled German study should have been a dagger to enemies of the brand without proof.

Full paper with methodology and results at: https://www.image-engineering.de/content/library/conference_papers/2017_03/a...erformance.pdf

Note the performance of the much hyped Canon 7D MkII dual pixel and Fuji XT1 systems (wasn't Fuji calling it at launch time the fastest in the world or some such?).

Example test below … they also do the same Z-axis test in low light (300lx).

[Joetitch]

I don't know how many Motorcross riders are on this forum, but in the professional field of Motorcross they are not travelling at a few kph.
Most would be travelling faster than most dogs can run. A couple of years ago IIRC normhead posted tracking Jess his dog running towards the camera and had a 90% keeper rate. As humans we are not all the same when performance of a task is required. Olympic games comes to mind. If you can't achieve what someone else can manage to do, don't avoid looking in the mirror.
I know I don't have the skills required to achieve Lee's results, it's not my camera's fault. Another camera might help but without testing the hypothesis it's only a thought bubble.

[Wheatfield]

I don't know how many Motorcross riders are on this forum, but in the professional field of Motorcross they are not travelling at a few kph.
Most would be travelling faster than most dogs can run. A couple of years ago IIRC normhead posted tracking Jess his dog running towards the camera and had a 90% keeper rate. As humans we are not all the same when performance of a task is required. Olympic games comes to mind. If you can't achieve what someone else can manage to do, don't avoid looking in the mirror.
I know I don't have the skills required to achieve Lee's results, it's not my camera's fault. Another camera might help but without testing the hypothesis it's only a thought bubble.

In this case, watch the video. Calling it motocross would be akin to calling a bunch of senior citizen mall walkers a foot race.

---------- Post added Sep 22nd, 2022 at 10:10 AM ----------

IMHO, it is you spreading disinformation, Wheatfield.

Your claim that Pentax is inferior to others in your cherry picked z direction was completely disproved by science years ago. Your inability to take a picture of a dog is on *you*.

This controlled German study should have been a dagger to enemies of the brand without proof.

Full paper with methodology and results at: https://www.image-engineering.de/content/library/conference_papers/2017_03/a...erformance.pdf

Note the performance of the much hyped Canon 7D MkII dual pixel and Fuji XT1 systems (wasn't Fuji calling it at launch time the fastest in the world or some such?).

Example test below … they also do the same Z-axis test in low light (300lx).

Got it. I set the focus point on the dog as it runs towards me, keep it there, and watch as the AF tries and fails to keep up, and that's the camera succeeding.

Meanwhile my friend with the EOS1 (a much more expensive camera to be sure) can do the same thing with her camera and a faster dog and get a series of tack sharp pictures.

If my Pentax is succeeding, I guess that means the Canon is failing.
I'm glad we have that straight.

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Last edited by Wheatfield; 09-22-2022 at 09:11 AM.

[slartibartfast01]

In this case, watch the video. Calling it motocross would be akin to calling a bunch of senior citizen mall walkers a foot race.

I'm amazed that you can tell how fast the riders are moving from a series of still pictures.

[Joetitch]

I remember watching the Australian Grand prix on TV and thinking that they were crawling around the hair pin bend until I noticed that the speed shown at the bottom of the screen indicated 90 Kph. 😲

[Joetitch]

In this case, watch the video. Calling it motocross would be akin to calling a bunch of senior citizen mall walkers a foot race.


---------- Post added Sep 22nd, 2022 at 10:10 AM ----------




Got it. I set the focus point on the dog as it runs towards me, keep it there, and watch as the AF tries and fails to keep up, and that's the camera succeeding.

Meanwhile my friend with the EOS1 (a much more expensive camera to be sure) can do the same thing with her camera and a faster dog and get a series of tack sharp pictures.

If my Pentax is succeeding, I guess that means the Canon is failing.
I'm glad we have that straight.

If you want to claim it is not a test of AF performance, get kitted out find a motocross event and get a keeper rate close to Lee. I can claim I can play the flute by blowing in one end and running my fingers up and down the outside.

So she has an upper tier Canon. How is her ibis on vintage lenses not to mention astrotracer?
Did she have a lense with internal focus motor. Were you using a screwdrive focus lense?
Did you try her camera to see if you could get the same result?
So many variables in your story which require answers to be able to make an informed judgement on your experience.

[clackers]

Got it. I set the focus point on the dog as it runs towards me

Incorrect, of course, Wheatfield.

The focus point must not be 'on the dog'.

That's a noob's view. If one is as simplistic as that, no wonder you struggle with action photography!

Your inability to keep up with your friend is due to skill.

The German measurements *removed* lack of skill as the error.

Look at the results again. Frames 4-8 of the sequences the Pentax K-3 II is actually superior to the Canon 7D Mk II.

Same target, same repeatable methodology.

Lee is doing the same with the motorbikes, no matter how much you try to diminish his and other Pentax sports photographers' skills.

[slartibartfast01]

Incorrect, of course, Wheatfield.

The focus point must not be 'on the dog'.

That's a noob's view. If one is as simplistic as that, no wonder you struggle with action photography!

How do you use AF to focus on 'not the dog' then? Or are you proposing that manual focus should be used?

[beholder3]

I think the key message here is that you can get absolutely good enough "technical keeper rates" with any system out there if you know what you are doing. Certainly including Pentax DSLRs.

The video is one more proof of that.


The thing is that I believe the photo quality one nets per year very likely will not go up in any meaningful way with an increasing "technical keeper rate" when looking at systems so refined as the ones we have today.

[clackers]

How do you use AF to focus on 'not the dog' then? Or are you proposing that manual focus should be used?

So, "To a PDAF focus system, there are no children, there are no dogs, no cups of coffee, just distinct lines.", Slartibartfast.

I did cover some of this in my beginners' tips #14 and #29 here, I'll do more in the future:

Clackers' Beginners Tips (Collected) - PentaxForums.com

Below is another dog picture that Pentax cameras supposedly can't take:

[slartibartfast01]

So, "To a PDAF focus system, there are no children, there are no dogs, no cups of coffee, just distinct lines.", Slartibartfast.



I did cover some of this in my beginners' tips #14 and #29 here, I'll do more in the future:



Clackers' Beginners Tips (Collected) - PentaxForums.com

OK so with a dog you may need to focus on the outline of the dog but you are still focussing on the dog and the camera still needs to track it.