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03-28-2016, 05:46 PM   #16
mee
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QuoteOriginally posted by ohmic314 Quote
Just to update some of you on the progress.

I contacted my local consumer protection agency and they say they can't do too much except contact the manufacturer with the complaint. However, they still want us to files these complaints because it builds up a case. If they see it happening a lot, they'll file a class action lawsuit with the attorney general.

I also contacted the Better Business Bureau and like with the consumer protection agency, they have no legal ability to do anything. But they were happy to take my complaint and forwarded it to Ricoh in a few hours. I'm not sure if it went out via mail or email, but it's on its way to corporate. If Ricoh doesn't reply, then they get a ding in their BBB rating, but I don't think that does much to deter consumers or encourage them to do better.

I contacted my credit card and they told me I have a legitimate claim and I can file a chargeback. The only issue is that I can't use their online form and need to call the claim in because the original date of purchase was more than 90 days ago. In any case, they can and will help. This would be the fastest way for me to get a refund so I can purchase a new camera and get to shooting photos. I'm reluctant to go this route as I'm afraid it will take the money from the retailer and not impact Ricoh at all. I will wait a few days before going this route.

If I do not file a chargeback, then I may file a small claims lawsuit. I realize it will take a long time and I'm likely to get the camera back by then, but at least it will be hit by their corporate lawyers and force them to take a serious look at the situation.
Have you done any contacting to Ricoh Imaging North America's phone line? When I complained enough, I had several high level ricoh people leaving voice mail on my phone. I prefer email too but if you're wanting an answer so quickly it seems phone works best. I'd try the phone with ricoh before foaming at the mouth threatening lawsuits.

03-28-2016, 06:13 PM - 1 Like   #17
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Sounds to me like you are engaging in malicious prosecution considering the number of agencies you've gotten involved. Many of the agencies won't handle the case if it is being handled by another. And most of them will look for "reasonable" actions of remedy by both parties. I'd say you've gone beyond reasonable.

Methinks it is borscleto action time..
03-28-2016, 06:25 PM   #18
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ohmic314, you doing the right thing. A camera should not break after 6 months and parts not available.

You should contact again Ricoh to push them. With the launch of the K-1, bad advertising is not good.
03-28-2016, 06:34 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Have you done any contacting to Ricoh Imaging North America's phone line? When I complained enough, I had several high level ricoh people leaving voice mail on my phone. I prefer email too but if you're wanting an answer so quickly it seems phone works best. I'd try the phone with ricoh before foaming at the mouth threatening lawsuits.
Yup, I did contact them over the phone and they informed me that they cannot escalate this over the phone. Any issue that is to be escalated must be in writing through their web form. That is the only way they can forward it up the management chain.

---------- Post added 03-28-16 at 06:46 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Not a Number Quote
Sounds to me like you are engaging in malicious prosecution considering the number of agencies you've gotten involved. Many of the agencies won't handle the case if it is being handled by another. And most of them will look for "reasonable" actions of remedy by both parties. I'd say you've gone beyond reasonable.

Methinks it is borscleto action time..
Thanks for keeping me in check. At this moment, I have only officially filed a complaint with two places: The BBB and consumer protection. Neither are able to take any legal action and they are only able to forward requests to Ricoh. In addition, they will record these incidents in case they see a pattern and will take action only if many people have the same complaint. They will not do any legal action for me personally. The only thing they can do is a class action lawsuit and this is only if a lot of consumers complain.

At this time I have not threatened any lawsuits or engaged in their legal department. I have only made a formal complaint. This is basically the same as if I wrote a bad review on several websites. Do you believe I have gone too far doing this?

03-28-2016, 06:57 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by ohmic314 Quote
Do you believe I have gone too far doing this?
Considering the time involved, yes. But that is just my opinion. I'm honestly astounded at what you have done. A BBB complaint because your camera is waiting on parts?
03-28-2016, 08:59 PM - 1 Like   #21
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Welcome to the Pentax Forums!

QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Well, you are not going to get any of these.
What he said...

Sorry you are having this problem with your K-50. Last year about this time, I sent a close friend's K-50 to Precision for the same issue. There were some communication issues, but the turn-around time was only about three weeks total with most of the wait being due a lapse in getting authorization for the repair.

QuoteOriginally posted by ohmic314 Quote
they sent me a notice saying the part needed is backordered and won't be available for a few more weeks.
Your answer is that they are waiting on parts.

The good news is that Ricoh has authorized your repair and the camera is in Precision's work queue. The bad news is that, depending on the part, the wait may be fairly short or fairly long. The issue of repair part inventory is not limited to Ricoh, but is the bane of the industry. Regional distributors are not generally inclined to maintain a large inventory of repair parts. "Shelvage" is an expense that seldom results in appreciable returns.

In regards to making demands of Ricoh in regards to warranty repair...Like it or not, unless you purchase a third-party insurance/warranty* you are at the mercy of the warranty terms and the relationship between Ricoh and Precision.
  • Your warranty is for failure due to other than abuse or accidental damage
  • Ricoh has the right to determine whether to repair or replace your camera
  • Ricoh will determine where and what warranty service may be performed
  • Ricoh is a customer of Precision in that they pay for the repairs done to your camera and have a contractual relationship with them for warranty fulfillment
  • You are also a customer of Precision in that you own the camera
  • Both you and Ricoh have an arm's-length relationship with Precision and Precision has no interest in alienating either of you
  • Both you and Precision have an arms-length relationship with Ricoh and Ricoh has no interest in alienating either of you

In regards to doing a charge-back on your credit card:
  • I am surprised that your card company suggested that remedy. Charge-back is used when there is an issue with the retail vendor or evidence of fraud.
  • If you charge-back your original purchase, you are penalizing the store where you bought the camera and Ricoh gets off with no penalty
  • A pattern of charge backs on your credit card may hurt your credit rating

In my opinion, it is unlikely that Ricoh will approve a replacement camera unless the parts wait is longer than 90 days or the cost to repair is greater than the cost to replace. If posts to this Web site are any indication, there has been a flurry of this particular failure in the last several weeks. Depletion of the parts inventory at Precision does not surprise me nor would depletion of parts at Ricoh N. America. If parts do not appear by the six week mark, you should contact both Ricoh and Precision again indicating the wait at that point is outside a reasonable time. (Industry standard is about 90 days, but that is not your concern.)


Steve

P.S. It unlikely that you would get traction in Small Claims court at this point in time. Your camera is in process for repair and both Ricoh and Precision have been responsive. If the time goes beyond 90 days and either entity becomes unresponsive, you may then have grounds for suit, but even then it is hard to say regarding the type of remedy the court might order.

* FWIW, most third-party warranties subrogate coverage to any existing factory warranty and only go into effect where that warranty does not cover.

Last edited by stevebrot; 03-28-2016 at 09:11 PM.
03-29-2016, 12:13 AM   #22
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And knowing at the rate the government agencies you've gotten involved move at it will take at least 30-90 days for them to investigate and reach a decision.

Probably not fast enough for you. I suppose you'll report them or sue them. A civil suit will probably take you 90 days to 18 months to settle. Not fast enough? What then? Judge Judy? Buy a gun? Social Media?
03-29-2016, 07:31 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by ohmic314 Quote
Yup, I did contact them over the phone and they informed me that they cannot escalate this over the phone. Any issue that is to be escalated must be in writing through their web form. That is the only way they can forward it up the management chain.

---------- Post added 03-28-16 at 06:46 PM ----------



Thanks for keeping me in check. At this moment, I have only officially filed a complaint with two places: The BBB and consumer protection. Neither are able to take any legal action and they are only able to forward requests to Ricoh. In addition, they will record these incidents in case they see a pattern and will take action only if many people have the same complaint. They will not do any legal action for me personally. The only thing they can do is a class action lawsuit and this is only if a lot of consumers complain.

At this time I have not threatened any lawsuits or engaged in their legal department. I have only made a formal complaint. This is basically the same as if I wrote a bad review on several websites. Do you believe I have gone too far doing this?
You are not the only one in line to have their camera repaired, and no repair place can possibly keep each & every part for every camera out there. It's sad when a "new" camera needs repairs, but that's what the warranty is for. Complaints to the BBB and Consumer Protection, should be for fraudulent acts; not repairs that are in the process. I only hope my K3 never needs repair, but in case; I've kept a mint K10D for a backup. These things can happen with every item you buy, and unreasonable demands will not make the repair go any faster without the necessary parts needed.

I hope you get your K50 back soon, and there's a happy ending!

03-29-2016, 05:31 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by ohmic314 Quote
Yup, I did contact them over the phone and they informed me that they cannot escalate this over the phone. Any issue that is to be escalated must be in writing through their web form. That is the only way they can forward it up the management chain.

---------- Post added 03-28-16 at 06:46 PM ----------



Thanks for keeping me in check. At this moment, I have only officially filed a complaint with two places: The BBB and consumer protection. Neither are able to take any legal action and they are only able to forward requests to Ricoh. In addition, they will record these incidents in case they see a pattern and will take action only if many people have the same complaint. They will not do any legal action for me personally. The only thing they can do is a class action lawsuit and this is only if a lot of consumers complain.

At this time I have not threatened any lawsuits or engaged in their legal department. I have only made a formal complaint. This is basically the same as if I wrote a bad review on several websites. Do you believe I have gone too far doing this?
I don't, Ricoh should be able to help, they say they have parts yet they do nothing even though THEIR repair contractor says differently. Ricoh should help you out. Also I don't buy the gait keeping bit where they say you can't talk to a supervisor. I've called many companies in the past and never was refused. It didn't always help but many times it did.
03-30-2016, 03:03 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikeD Quote
I don't, Ricoh should be able to help, they say they have parts yet they do nothing even though THEIR repair contractor says differently.
Where did you read that? I just went back through all the OP's comments on this thread and found none where Ricoh confirmed to the OP they had the required parts in stock for his camera's repair.* If I missed something, it may be due to my "weak character" or perhaps "weak eyes" or even "weak mind". I dunno...I may be getting soft with age.

QuoteOriginally posted by MikeD Quote
...though others of weaker character may disagree...

Steve

(...FWIW, I disagree...)

* The OP contacted Ricoh before sending the camera and was told by the CSR that they stock parts for common cameras. At some later time the camera was sent to, received, and diagnosed by Precision, but repair was delayed due to the need to order parts. I consider this to be similar to the three week wait I recently had for parts on my late model Nissan...common model, common part, no local or regional inventory

Last edited by stevebrot; 03-30-2016 at 03:21 PM.
03-30-2016, 03:55 PM - 1 Like   #26
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What almost everyone with a gripe who expects a same-day call back from a manager at Ricoh N.A. fails to understand is - the entire company, from Receptionist to Secretaries, to Parts Manager to PR Director to President is only 50 people. That's 50. People. 50.

We're so entitled in America. What makes us so self-important that we think our $269 consumer purchase entitles us to immediate response, personal attention from the company President? Why do we think spending our day calling agencies should get us some resolution? What makes us think we're the only one who has a broken camera awaiting parts?

The camera broke. Ricoh will fix it. It will take a few extra weeks - bad luck.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-30-2016 at 06:39 PM.
03-30-2016, 04:32 PM   #27
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So what's so special about the OPs situation that RIcoh has to expedite a special shipment of parts ahead of other repair jobs that may be ahead in the queue possibly for the same backordered parts?

Do you make it a habit of pushing your way to the front of a queue or cutting other drivers off in traffic?
03-31-2016, 04:42 PM   #28
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No new updates for now, as I didn't expect much to happen for this week. But I have been following this thread and feel I should comment on some people's remarks.

First, I am not hoping to move in front of the queue or say I'm more important than anyone else. My intent is to tell Ricoh that it is unacceptable to have people wait 2 months or more to repair a camera that broke because they did a bad job making it. If Precision Camera is backlogged with a lot of cameras to repair, then maybe they can hire more people. If they are out of parts, do better at planning for shortages and order more parts to have in stock. How do any of you believe 2 months is acceptable when it takes 2 weeks to ship something from China.... on a boat.

A lot of people here also assume that I will have the camera repaired in less than 2 months. Given the experience from others in this forum, it could take 6 months before I get the camera back. Should I start the complaint after 6 months? As stated by some people, it takes weeks for government to respond. I'm starting my complaint process after 1 month has already passed to prevent it from extending well past 3 or 4 months. See what I did there? I planned ahead. Exactly what Ricoh/Precision Camera should be doing when it comes to repairs. "I expect 0.1% of cameras to break in the warranty period, the most common failures have historically been part X, therefore, I should have a stock of X part to cover that 0.1% of cameras that I think will break."

Ricoh themselves have stated that 3-5 weeks is excessive in getting repairs done. They told me that repairs normally take 3-5 days upon receipt, especially for common cameras like this one. Rare products that are expensive are more likely to have a part shortage because it is harder to predict when they'll need a repair with fewer of them out there.

Some believe that Ricoh is not at all responsible for the delays. I tend to think highly of Ricoh, but still believe they are partially responsible. Why don't they stock the parts in a warehouse in the US? Why are they shipping these parts from who knows where to Precision Camera?

Why do I believe that consumers should complain when companies do bad actions? Because otherwise they won't know they did anything wrong. Businesses are constantly trying to cut costs. One cost cutting they may have done is to do less testing for bad parts. If it costs $1 to test this part that fails 0.1% of the time, and we sell 1 million of these cameras, that's $1million in savings. We'll only get 1000 failures and it only costs $50 to repair it, then that's a cost of only $50,000. PROFIT! But guess what? It pisses off those 1000 people who had the failed part. Maybe the company can spend $100 per repair to have it repaired quickly? Less profit, but it'll make the customer happier. Or how about if the repair is taking longer than expected, I give this customer a replacement and sell the broken one as refurbished? There are lots of ways to make wait times shorter. I'm not telling them how to do it, I'm just telling them that 2 months+ is unacceptable.

All this being said, I do appreciate all of your feedback. If anything, it gives me more to think about and realize that I may be acting like an arrogant jerk, but I do have my reasons and am not doing it out of spite or anger.
03-31-2016, 05:02 PM   #29
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You are believing, the moment Prescicion send the order of parts Ricoh drop the package at EMS or SAL, most of the time maybe Ricoh dont have the part and order to another factory, if that factory have rhe part or take time to fullfill the order, then send to Ricoh and then Ricoh send to prescicion if the part is not a priority, may they search on others warehouse for the part semd to Ricoh and then prescicion... It take time.

That if isnt prescicion the one who make order only one day of the month (that could explain the 3 weeks delay for parts) and that add time, maybe Ricoh have more than only your parts in the order and will take a few weeks to ship all the parts togheter rather than a few screws every time to save costs.

Last edited by virusn3t; 03-31-2016 at 05:09 PM.
03-31-2016, 05:18 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by ohmic314 Quote
All this being said, I do appreciate all of your feedback. If anything, it gives me more to think about and realize that I may be acting like an arrogant jerk, but I do have my reasons and am not doing it out of spite or anger.
The problem is not that Ricoh is not responsible or that they should have had the parts or should have planned ahead. The problem is your reaction to the situation. In your opinion your camera should be fixed in a few weeks. Personally I agree with that, I think up to a month considering shipping time is reasonable. However, the warranty says it will be fixed, not when, not how long it will take. So taking actions such as you have done in an attempt to punish Ricoh do not seem right to me. Had Ricoh responded and said "tough we are not going to fix your camera" then yes I agree with you, escalate as much as you want. But filing a BBB complaint against a company that, for all you know, is frantically trying to get those parts made and shipped is not something I would ever do. They are in fact fulfilling their obligation under their warranty and under the law, even if isn't to your particular timetable.

Obviously we disagree on this, and that is fine. I spent 35 years in retail and dealt with all manner of customers, perhaps being on the receiving end of unjustified complaints for all those years makes me want to give a company the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it.

Good luck with your repair, I sincerely hope you get your camera back soon and in good repair.
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