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06-25-2016, 05:44 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by phat_bog Quote
and i sell them, there's no problem. Anyway, i could've dropped it, had it stolen, anything.
I agree.
So I respectfully suggest your OP is not appropriate.
In business we have clients pecking our A## if we get out of line or our suppliers let us down.
And we get to chew the A## of our suppliers if they get out of line.

Hopefully all that will be resolved without going on public forum, mentioning names, charging illegality etc

I suppose it is OK for us to give our anecdotes about equipment on a forum such as this,
but maybe we should keep names and business issues quiet lest we regret later.

I hope you get it resolved.

06-25-2016, 05:59 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by wombat2go Quote
I agree.
Hopefully all that will be resolved without going on public forum, mentioning names, charging illegality etc
It will go as much and as far as it takes, by legal and public means, until Pentax Ricoh Imaging stops covering up unworthy & wicked customer service.
06-25-2016, 06:49 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Spam...right....wrong....no way I can know, I don't know the OP or his integrity...I am not questioning it, I just have no knowledge to make a call.

I do know that if I am in the right, receive shoddy service and no remedy, then I simply pick up my phone..."Hello Discovercard, I would like a charge removed from my account of a product under warrant where the warranty was not fulfilled." Done, over, no longer my problem. There are protections that you can use if you are cautious, and I use them. Now the problem is no longer mine and I am protected by laws that will make the seller respond or lose money. If they lose enough money they will make the responsible party ......responsible. Isn't that all we ask for?

Regards!
what is Discovercard ? what can they do in this case ?
06-25-2016, 08:01 PM - 2 Likes   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by redcat Quote
what is Discovercard ? what can they do in this case ?
An American credit card company. And what they can do is reverse the charge on the product if you have tried to resolve the issue without success. It is then up to the company and an arbitration board to reach a remedy. If not, the charge stays removed. Very simple and very effective. Just use their card and be in good standing.
I've used it with success a few times in my over 30 years as a card member with them...worked perfectly every time.

The last time was a year ago when a supplier to Home Depot failed repeatedly to live up to their warranty on a gas log set. I had tried everything..and documented it. It was a simple repair, just a small part that had failed. I just got nowhere with getting help.
One call and FedX was here the next day with a replacement part...this after almost a month of constant calls and even a certified letter trying to get a repair.
When Discover called Home Depot the vendor had a choice.....make this right or lose having your merchandise in our stores. These stories about "it only hurts the seller" if you reverse a charge are absurd. This is the only way to make the mfg. live up to their responsibility. When a seller takes the hit, repeatedly, they stop carrying the product...they can't afford the bad PR and the loss of income.
Works for me...and anyone else that will make the small effort to demand a seller and mfg. live up to their promise.

Regards!

06-25-2016, 09:20 PM   #35
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I purchase from Home Depot and Lowes quite a lot for "This Old House" here.
On the few occasions where the goods are not good I just walk in the door to the returns counter.
No questions, all they do is reverse the transaction, with to option to get another one or keep the cash reversal.

But photo gear ? -different culture I think
06-25-2016, 11:04 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
An American credit card company. And what they can do is reverse the charge on the product if you have tried to resolve the issue without success. It is then up to the company and an arbitration board to reach a remedy. If not, the charge stays removed. Very simple and very effective. Just use their card and be in good standing.
I've used it with success a few times in my over 30 years as a card member with them...worked perfectly every time.

The last time was a year ago when a supplier to Home Depot failed repeatedly to live up to their warranty on a gas log set. I had tried everything..and documented it. It was a simple repair, just a small part that had failed. I just got nowhere with getting help.
One call and FedX was here the next day with a replacement part...this after almost a month of constant calls and even a certified letter trying to get a repair.
When Discover called Home Depot the vendor had a choice.....make this right or lose having your merchandise in our stores. These stories about "it only hurts the seller" if you reverse a charge are absurd. This is the only way to make the mfg. live up to their responsibility. When a seller takes the hit, repeatedly, they stop carrying the product...they can't afford the bad PR and the loss of income.
Works for me...and anyone else that will make the small effort to demand a seller and mfg. live up to their promise.

Regards!
that sounds amazing, I don't know if this kind of service exists in France or in EU @_@
06-26-2016, 06:53 AM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by wombat2go Quote
I purchase from Home Depot and Lowes quite a lot for "This Old House" here.
Home Depot is very good about returns or help in getting you the service you deserve.....so is Lowes and Walmart. Many others too....but not everyone is so customer oriented.

I have never understood the often shoddy service we allow in the camera/photography arena. The only logical reason it is so poor that I can see is that we allow it. Imagine your new car, under warranty, being in the dealer's repair shop for 6-8 week for a minor repair?? Not acceptable.

Camera mfgs. can create a system that trains technicians, outfits repair centers and monitors customer satisfaction. If it results in an increase in prices, it is still a winning formula. I suspect the greed of limiting expense on a non-profitable repair drives their lack of concern.

We are fortunate to have a place here to voice our concerns, and hopefully Ricoh is listening and will make the effort to give us better support. While there are always a few abusers...in all aspects of life...most people just want their gear repaired in a timely manner and get back to shooting as quickly as possible. As is anything else, the Golden Rule should be forefront at corporate headquarters...of course, we know that is asking a lot in today's highly competitive world...but it shouldn't be.

Regards!

---------- Post added 06-26-16 at 09:25 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by redcat Quote
that sounds amazing, I don't know if this kind of service exists in France or in EU @_@
I can't answer that.....but many Credit Card companies have agreements that make sellers liable for seeing that the purchaser's rights are fulfilled under the warranty of the merchandise. Retailers have found ways to avoid this with the Mfg. by shifting all responsibility to the Mfg after purchase.
Many Credit Card companies do not, and will not, make this agreement....so they are your last line of defense.

Credit Card companies are extremely powerful...imagine a big retailer that was cut off by a CC company and the resulting loss of sales/revenue.

Here is a good example of how much impact that can carry...

About 15 years ago I had a custom built computer built at a large chain computer store. It was a top of the line computer at the time and expensive.
I picked it up at the store when it was complete and took it home ......about 35 miles from the location of the store. I went to use it for the first time and it would not turn on? Was there something I was doing wrong...a problem...or other situation that was causing this? I called the store and asked for the tech dept. They were "all busy" but would call me right back. Never called. Over two hours later I called again....same result. I called back and asked for the store mgr. Same result. It was a Friday evening and the store closed at 10pm.....so I started over on Sat morning.....made over a dozen calls with the same result.
By about 5Pm I was steaming, so I called Discover and told them my well documented story. Being a customer oriented CC company, they said they would call the store on my behalf. About two hours later Discover called me back and said they had received the same no-response I had, but not to worry they had a remedy that would solve my problem very quickly.

Less that 15 minutes later the Gen Mgr of the nationwide chain called me....apologized profusely, and offered to immediately dispatch a technician to my home. It was getting late and I told him that Sunday would be better for me. He was very anxious about that and wanted to immediately solve my problem. I asked him why not just get a tech to call me, maybe it was that simple to resolve. He did and a tech called and in minutes my computer was up and running perfectly.

So why the hurry to get me satisfied? Discover had cut off the transactions of their card in over 700 stores from coast to coast. People in line trying to pay with Discover were unable to use their card and left the stores without purchasing or had to use other methods of payment. This caused massive turmoil and that's why the Gen Mgr was in a panic. It only lasted a few minutes...but would have gone on longer if they did not remedy my situation. There is great power in a CC and if it is a good one, like Discover, you have little fear of being abused by a giant retailer. Money talks...very loudly.

Regards!
06-26-2016, 08:45 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Credit Card companies are extremely powerful...imagine a big retailer that was cut off by a CC company and the resulting loss of sales/revenue.
Money talks...very loudly.
Thanks Rupert for your enlightening story, it is surely a very good line of defense for the consumer.

But i still think ( maybe because when you do photography, in many ways you create utopias ) , that no company is supposed to do better than law. I don't like CC companies being the last resort. It should be the respect of laws, law application itself and the ethics defining B2B & B2C relationships.

Calling for massive consumer boycott over bad quality & bad service & no respect for laws defining consumer - industry is still, and will always be the best wat to protect ourselves and make things change for our own sake.

06-26-2016, 09:34 AM - 1 Like   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by phat_bog Quote
Calling for massive consumer boycott over bad quality & bad service & no respect for laws defining consumer - industry is still, and will always be the best wat to protect ourselves and make things change for our own sake.
I agree...that Golden Rule is still the best way to do business. The laws are generally in our favor too, so there are many avenues to pursue a complaint other than boycotts and spamming the internet. The problem is far too many do not know the laws or the other ways to get a fast and sure remedy. If people would educate themselves on this matter there would be fewer stories of unsatisfied customers.

Few people, least of all me, want to get involved with a time consuming effort to get a fair shake, when it is easier to just come on the internet and squeal.

A few tips that are not often followed and can result in failed efforts of satisfaction...

Document ever step of your transaction.


*Purchase date..receipt.
* The time of your initial call or contact and who you spoke with.
*The nature of the conversation. ( I use a recorder, it is legal in my state)
*The response ...or lack of....
*Every detail.....write it down, you may need it.

It's a pain and frustrating, but you will have what the adversary doesn't......a complete and accurate picture of your efforts.

I rarely have a problem, but do know how to pursue and remedy one when I do. Mrs Rupert has a $2K Yamaha Clavinova piano that was free because I had the information/documentation I needed and the seller didn't. That was never ever my goal, but arrogant and unsavory service led to that. You only have to be used and mistreated if you allow it.

Regards!
06-26-2016, 01:35 PM   #40
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When it comes to service I would trust the German service centers far more. Normally us Dutch guys have to send repairs to France also, but I never did as they couldn't even give an estimate, which the people at Foto Maerz could give within one day via email.
06-29-2016, 06:58 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Borrelli Quote
When it comes to service I would trust the German service centers far more. Normally us Dutch guys have to send repairs to France also, but I never did as they couldn't even give an estimate, which the people at Foto Maerz could give within one day via email.
Thanks for the info!

But now as i could further investigate and have an official Pentax Ricoh Imaging Europe response :

My conclusion are clear :

i) Europe is a difficult market for some foreign companies. As European Union is so made that regulations are much more strict than everywhere else in the world, when it comes to many things, and especially consumer protection.
In this sense the old democratic culture here, and the way things evolved more recently with EU, consumer's protection and satisfaction are the Golden rule. I think the kind of "emergency" note i wrote by reading ready to diffuse it through much more effective channels is proof enough.

ii) The outsourcing company is the problem in my particular case, and i'm sure in most of other similar cases. Pentax Ricoh Imaging were very cooperative and showed real concern about what happened. I'm in no doubt that they will double efforts so this thing don't happen. And i'm in no doubt that PM2S will do the same. Concerning PM2S i still have a complete file ready to take off through lawsuit, i will wait a bit to see how they manage to fully take responsability, in the future.
Given the parts on the market, i belive that Ricoh Imaging doesn't have other choices out here than to keep on working with them and double their attention.

iii) If we all shoot Pentax Ricoh : means we support and appreciate Pentax. How will Pentax Ricoh conquer new customers if almost all pentaxians turn round and round promoting love for Pentax almost only on Pentax Forums, closed facebook groups, and other dedicated Pentax Ricoh groups on ohter websites ?
In Paris, i'm the only customer under 50yo (actually i'm into my 30's...) i've crossed the many times i go to the official Pentax Store. The Pentax guy seems always pleased to see a young photographer buying expensive stuff, for which i work hard.
Go see the number of instagram hastags of canikon, fuji, against ricoh & pentax. It's a huge tremendous diference. and almost all the rare ricoh are fot the Theta btw.. As long as pentaxians stay united but don't open up and promote virally their modern gear with pentax hashtags , comments or simply FB quotes, we don't count as pentaxians. It's a mutual help me help you relationship we need with Ricoh Pentax Imaging.

I'm available through pm for further questions.

Cheers
06-30-2016, 06:59 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by phat_bog Quote
Calling for massive consumer boycott over bad quality & bad service & no respect for laws defining consumer - industry is still, and will always be the best wat to protect ourselves and make things change for our own sake.
QuoteOriginally posted by phat_bog Quote
ii) If we all shoot Pentax Ricoh : means we support and appreciate Pentax. How will Pentax Ricoh conquer new customers if almost all pentaxians turn round and round promoting love for Pentax almost only on Pentax Forums, closed facebook groups, and other dedicated Pentax Ricoh groups on ohter websites ?
Frankly, I would never join a boycott against Pentax. If I'm that unhappy with my Pentax products, I'll simply go to another brand. Saying that "almost all pentaxians turn round and round promoting love for Pentax almost only on Pentax Forums"; well, we join this forum because of our love for Pentax!

" Concerning PM2S i still have a complete file ready to take off through lawsuit, i will wait a bit to see how they manage to fully take responsability, in the future."

You received a brand new camera, yet you are still threatening with a lawsuit? That goes a long way to show how grateful you are to receive that new camera.


I frankly do not know why you keep "beating the dead horse"; you got a new camera, so why not just move on? When you consider the number of Pentax cameras in the hands of consumers, compared to problems with those cameras, I think Pentax products are very good. Can we use better/more service centers? Yes, but that goes for most brands of cameras, not just Pentax.

Last edited by csa; 06-30-2016 at 07:45 AM.
06-30-2016, 08:07 AM   #43
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With your atitude, I'll hope you change to another brand.
And second I hope that there isn't any fault in the camera you get for at least two years, that you don't find any reason to bash another brand too.
06-30-2016, 08:21 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by csa Quote
Frankly, I would never join a boycott against Pentax. If I'm that unhappy with my Pentax products, I'll simply go to another brand.
I frankly do not know why you keep "beating the dead horse"; you got a new camera, so why not just move on? When you consider the number of Pentax cameras in the hands of consumers, compared to problems with those cameras, I think Pentax products are very good. Can we use better/more service centers? Yes, but that goes for most brands of cameras, not just Pentax.
Amigo, the problem with Pentax cameras in Europe is simple: outsourcing customer service.
Main reason may be their tiny market share here.
If the outsourced company (here, PM2S), send back bad serviced cameras, who suffers? me, yes. Who else? Pentax Ricoh Imaging.

The answer is in your argument: " When you consider the number of Pentax cameras in the hands of consumers, compared to problems with those cameras, I think Pentax products are very good" .

Well, 2 other cameras manufacturers have 10 times & more bigger market share. If you want to make the people attracted by canikons to buy , or change for & stay with pentax, pentax customer service must at least be equal to canikon service.

Anyway, seems i'm much more loyal to Pentax than you are. I wouldn't change the brand, like you would
.


---------- Post added 06-30-16 at 08:26 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by joergens.mi Quote
With your atitude, I'll hope you change to another brand.
And second I hope that there isn't any fault in the camera you get for at least two years, that you don't find any reason to bash another brand too.
At the end, hopefully my attitude is a lot more beneficial to Pentax than your response is.

Last edited by phat_bog; 06-30-2016 at 08:29 AM.
06-30-2016, 11:00 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by csa Quote
you got a new camera
he got a new camera ? I don't see any comment mentioned that @__@
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