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01-24-2020, 06:18 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
No argue that the service provided was very bad and wrong.
This is not the first time we see something like this with this brand and propably not the last time either. It sadly is a bitter truth that the refuse many repairs that should be part of waranty (thinking about a completly decentered 16-85 and defective wheel on a battery grip in my case and a sdm failure a friend of mine had to suffer from).
But the way it turned to the general construction being bad discussion, I cannot agree on that.
If you want even better quality in general, you will be paying tripple the prices you pay now, at least.
No they do not. You are spouting untruths.


Last edited by monochrome; 01-24-2020 at 06:26 PM.
01-24-2020, 11:12 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
No they do not. You are spouting untruths.
Well, sorry if this hurts your feelings. The wr grip, so I was told, got wet (well, it never fell into any water, was only used in light rain) and therefore not repaired on warranty and the 16-85 was "good as it is" although very very decentered. The later at least was repaired when I refused to accept it.
The systematic sdm failures should be fixed by Pentax even outside warranty, as it is a systematic failure. At least in Germany that is part of the law.
The first two examples may be down to the German service partner, the sdm failure is a well known international example.
01-25-2020, 07:48 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
No they do not. You are spouting untruths.
I'd be interested in knowing why you think that. What's the basis of that assertion?

This is my third such experience, which would indicate to me a relatively high degree of noncompliance; I don't know where I'd fit on the Gaussian curve, but I'd like to see what the variance and standard deviations would be on that chart.
01-25-2020, 08:12 AM   #64
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And here's another:

Canada Pentax Lens Warranty Experience - PentaxForums.com

01-25-2020, 09:08 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlh Quote
I'd be interested in knowing why you think that. What's the basis of that assertion?

This is my third such experience, which would indicate to me a relatively high degree of noncompliance; I don't know where I'd fit on the Gaussian curve, but I'd like to see what the variance and standard deviations would be on that chart.
My opinion is just that, based on over a decade of reading this Forum daily, and (for a time, though not since RIAC went fully internet) having persoanal contact with Ricoh Imaging employees. I have intervened on behalf of members who could not get satisfaction from C.R.I.S. and Precision and obtained replacement lenses when I knew people. Your dealer has a Rep, and can do the same.

There are plenty of cases where Ricoh accepted responsibity for manufacturing defects (150-450 seals; K-1 Mode Dial). What happens (rarely) at Ricoh is:
  1. Supply of spare parts is exhausted and it is presumed they are reluctant to make more until there are more repairs in the que. (Likely the case for the Canada thread)
  2. Refuse to acknowledge a design fault (SDM motors on DA* zooms and aperture block failure on K-50 series, both out of warranty period)*
  3. Failure to fully equip and/or train Precision (as much a Precision problem a a Ricoh problem) sometimes requiring Japan repair of high-end / low volume lenses (150-450 seals binding).
I don’t believe they have made a second batch of DA560’s; they are still selling stock from the initial run.

I realize the distinction is irrelevant to an end-user. IMO it is more likely this is a one-off and a result of poor communication between your dealer and Precision (or Ricoh). To allege a company intentionally fails to honor a warranty (as the other member did) is reckless and disparaging without basis in fact. As an attorney you should know better.


* I do hold them at fault for the SDM motors. That issue carried over from Asahi to Pentax to Hoya, and was quietly resolved by Ricoh.

Last edited by monochrome; 01-25-2020 at 09:22 AM.
01-25-2020, 11:41 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
No they do not. You are spouting untruths.
QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
Well, sorry if this hurts your feelings. The wr grip, so I was told, got wet (well, it never fell into any water, was only used in light rain) and therefore not repaired on warranty and the 16-85 was "good as it is" although very very decentered. The later at least was repaired when I refused to accept it.
The systematic sdm failures should be fixed by Pentax even outside warranty, as it is a systematic failure. At least in Germany that is part of the law.
The first two examples may be down to the German service partner, the sdm failure is a well known international example.
Hmmmm...water intrusion,1 decentering2 that was eventually fixed under warranty, and SDM3. You forgot to include aperture control failure on the K-30/K-50.

I agree with monochrome regarding both the hyperbole and the veracity.


Steve

1 A few months shooting Sony should demonstrate the definition of "light" rain. That said, seal failure on a grip is hard to pin on the manufacturer given the variables for normal usage. Ricoh/Pentax's refusal to replace under warranty is within the terms.

2 As noted multiple places on the Web, decentering is hardly rare, regardless of brand. Based on anecdotal evidence on this site, I have a hard time excepting that the problem is particularly pervasive within the Pentax brand. In regards to the warranty service, you should not have had to press the matter, but congratulations on doing so and getting the repair.

3 The general standard for product liability out of warranty is if there is evidence of hazard to life, limb, or property. Which of those apply to the DA* SDM failures?

Last edited by stevebrot; 01-25-2020 at 02:19 PM.
01-25-2020, 12:31 PM   #67
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First of all, in my first statement I was not talking about what the law forces, but what should be done in a company that considers themselves having a good service (other from the case presented by the op).

I can only speak about how it is handled in Germany and not in other countries. There is a German service partner deciding for Ricoh how to proceed. As this is my forced adress, I do not care if it is them or Ricoh making false decissions.

Well, first to sdm (which yes, was before Ricoh):
The error in production was known to the company within the span of warranty ("Gewährleistung", not "Garantie", I miss knowledge about legal terms in english, sorry). This indicates clearly that the product was flawed when delivered. If there is a serial error in the products which may or may not destroy the product within the span of warranty the company is forced to let customers know and replace or repair the product. If the company does not inform customers they need to correct it after the warranty. In this case Pentax/Hoya was lucky enough nobody was furious enough to force them to admit its a serial error. So in terms of law they are allowed to not repair it under warranty if the warranty span is over. Talking about best practise however it is really bad for a customer to refuse free repair and does not help its reputation. Even Nikon, which are not keen admiting errors, replaces serial errors on the cameras, I think it was the D750 where they had the bad shutter?

Decentering, the only case from Ricoh times, of course if often seen in lenses. The refuse to repair it when first send in may be not to uncommon either but still leaves a bad taste.
I wrote here earlier that I do not consider Pentax products being of bad quality, quite the opposite in fact, but the way defects are dealed with, from my limited experience, was rather bad.

About the battery grip: it was another case of course where in terms of law it was ok, sure. But to me as a customer, when a company calls it weather proofed, I expect it to be weather proofed even when there is no certification on that which can be used in a legal matter. The rainy day where it was damaged was a day I used non weather proofed lenses that had no issues what so ever, it was a light rain, nothing else. The thumb selection wheel after the rain however was broken and even made the camera one unusable as long as the grip was turned on.

Again, it might be ok from a legal standpoint, but still it is far from good customer service.

Sony, afaik, does not call their cameras water resistent (and they surely are not).

I had other occasions where I was pleased with the customer service too, my first FA77 (which I later destroyed by accident) got repaired for a fair price.
Back when I bought the k10d in Germany there was a one time free cleaning and lens calibration with it, which I made use of and was happy about.
I also had a broken bottom plate on my k10d within the first couple of weeks (not to uncommen on the very first k10d production cycle as I came to know later, but usually already detected during assambly and not shipped to customers) which got replaced rather quickly.
01-26-2020, 06:26 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
My opinion is just that, based on over a decade of reading this Forum daily, and (for a time, though not since RIAC went fully internet) having persoanal contact with Ricoh Imaging employees. I have intervened on behalf of members who could not get satisfaction from C.R.I.S. and Precision and obtained replacement lenses when I knew people. Your dealer has a Rep, and can do the same.

There are plenty of cases where Ricoh accepted responsibity for manufacturing defects (150-450 seals; K-1 Mode Dial). What happens (rarely) at Ricoh is:
  1. Supply of spare parts is exhausted and it is presumed they are reluctant to make more until there are more repairs in the que. (Likely the case for the Canada thread)
  2. Refuse to acknowledge a design fault (SDM motors on DA* zooms and aperture block failure on K-50 series, both out of warranty period)*
  3. Failure to fully equip and/or train Precision (as much a Precision problem a a Ricoh problem) sometimes requiring Japan repair of high-end / low volume lenses (150-450 seals binding).
I don’t believe they have made a second batch of DA560’s; they are still selling stock from the initial run.

I realize the distinction is irrelevant to an end-user. IMO it is more likely this is a one-off and a result of poor communication between your dealer and Precision (or Ricoh). To allege a company intentionally fails to honor a warranty (as the other member did) is reckless and disparaging without basis in fact. As an attorney you should know better.


* I do hold them at fault for the SDM motors. That issue carried over from Asahi to Pentax to Hoya, and was quietly resolved by Ricoh.
Thanks for that explanation. However, I do disagree as to one point: "To allege a company intentionally fails to honor a warranty (as the other member did) is reckless and disparaging without basis in fact. "; as an attorney, I know that people are presumed to have intended the ordinary and probable consequences of their actions. And, since I have three such experiences with Ricoh, now, I see what we lawyers call "a pattern or practice", which takes it out of "intentional" and into the realm of "willful". At this point, it's not a mere allegation, it's a legal presumption. I'd love it if they were to sue me for product disparagement over the statements I've made here. "Please don't throw me into that briar patch, Bre'r Fox!"

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