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08-26-2020, 09:27 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by weverka Quote
Thanks for all the advice.
I am a little surprised that some took my post as a flame on Precision, or that I am demanding something of them outside of the norm. I thank you for pointing me to the alternate Precision Terms and Conditions page that I missed when Precision sent me to the first Terms and Conditions page. Had I found the alternate Terms and Conditions before sending this in, I would not have relied on the first Terms and Conditions which said I would be responsible for the cost of return ground shipping only. ($18.95)
I think they should not have conflicting Terms and Conditions pages, but I will go with the repair and move on.
Thanks for helping me think this through,
Teddy
Hi Teddy,

Did you buy the lens new with credit card? Most credit cards would extend warranty by a year from date
of purchase so credit card company will pay your repair bill if it is covered by credit card's extended warranty.

Thanks.

Joey

08-26-2020, 11:31 PM   #32
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Since you are going ahead to have it repaired it may well be a moot point, but not too long ago Monochrome pointed to me to Erik Hendrickson at Home-Pentaxs. I was thrilled to the moon with his service. Had my 43 Ltd repaired in no time with reasonable cost of repair and shipping.
08-27-2020, 02:38 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by weverka Quote
... Had I found the alternate Terms and Conditions before sending this in, I would not have relied on the first Terms and Conditions ...
Of course an attorney might say that there couldn't possibly be two inconsistent sets of "terms and conditions", and it's possible, depending on how these things are done, that there really are no "terms and conditions" because none of them is legally cognizable. This is the classic definition of "ambiguity", and in such cases, the terms and conditions drafted by the seller are construed against the him - he's the author of his "terms and conditions" and has the power to write them clearly - therefore, you're entitled to take them any way that is best for you.

You may have a consumer protection statute where you live (or use one where precision is from under a "choice of laws" rule) that would give you some relief if you feel like filing suit in whatever local court (assuming "long arm jurisdiction") is appropriate. Of course, that's a job in itself and there are additional fees for filing, service of process, court reporters, etc. (which you can recover if you win as "costs"), and will take at least two days in court. Then, you've either got to hire a lawyer or learn enough about civil procedure to be able to make your argument effectively. And keep in mind that if you win, you don't automatically get paid. You've then got to collect on your judgment. A judgment is like a shopping bag - you have to fill it up yourself by using legal tools to take it away from the judgment-debtor. I have (in thirty years of litigation) never seen a defendant say, "Oh, well, you can't win 'em all", and just hand over a check. In fact, I've never even heard of such a thing. I did once have a jumbo-jet seized on the tarmac to pay a judgment, and I once had a number of patents seized, though the usual thing is to put a jugment lien on the real estate. But that's a good bit of work in itself. Again, you've got to hire a lawyer or figure out how to do it yourself.

I used to tell prospective client that, unless you're suing for at least ten thousand dollars, it just plain ain't worth the trouble.

Injustice happens, and when humans engage in business, they remind me of a bushel of crabs, each one trying to get just a little increment of "getting ahead" at the expense of its neighbors. I treat such little cheats as gifts to the business - forgive them for they know not what they do. Best to preserve your inner peace than to worry about nickels and dimes.
08-27-2020, 09:34 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by weverka Quote
Thanks for all the advice.
I am a little surprised that some took my post as a flame on Precision, or that I am demanding something of them outside of the norm. I thank you for pointing me to the alternate Precision Terms and Conditions page that I missed when Precision sent me to the first Terms and Conditions page. Had I found the alternate Terms and Conditions before sending this in, I would not have relied on the first Terms and Conditions which said I would be responsible for the cost of return ground shipping only. ($18.95)
I think they should not have conflicting Terms and Conditions pages, but I will go with the repair and move on.
Thanks for helping me think this through,
Teddy
To make a false point, you conveniently keep ignoring the fact that their terms and conditions include that the customer is responsible for bearing the cost of insurance for the return trip. This is, IMHO, more than a little dishonest on your part. I note the replacement cost of that lens is in the US$1300.00 range.
What do you suppose the cost to insure something in that price range is?
To me you are getting bent out of shape simply because you are willfully ignoring the part of the terms of service that you don't like.


Last edited by Wheatfield; 08-27-2020 at 10:02 AM.
08-27-2020, 12:46 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
To make a false point, you conveniently keep ignoring the fact that their terms and conditions include that the customer is responsible for bearing the cost of insurance for the return trip. This is, IMHO, more than a little dishonest on your part. I note the replacement cost of that lens is in the US$1300.00 range.
What do you suppose the cost to insure something in that price range is?
To me you are getting bent out of shape simply because you are willfully ignoring the part of the terms of service that you don't like.
OUCH! Dishonest, really?
I hope you will forgive me for not making this more explicit earlier.
The quoted charge was not for insurance, it was stated that it was a diagnostic fee.
It says: "If this cost estimate is refused a $45.00 diagnostic fee will apply."

Last edited by weverka; 08-27-2020 at 01:04 PM.
08-27-2020, 03:04 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by weverka Quote
OUCH! Dishonest, really?
I hope you will forgive me for not making this more explicit earlier.
The quoted charge was not for insurance, it was stated that it was a diagnostic fee.
It says: "If this cost estimate is refused a $45.00 diagnostic fee will apply."
That is not what you implied in your opening post.
So then, you are thinking that they should put the time and effort into diagnosing the problem with your equipment for free?
That seems unrealistic. I bet you like to be paid for your efforts. Why shouldn't the repair technicians at Precision Camera get paid for theirs?
When I was in the camera selling business, we had an estimate fee for repairs that was rolled into the repair price if the estimate was accepted. It was non refundable though. It sounds like Precision is operating under the same business model.
08-27-2020, 03:47 PM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
To make a false point, you conveniently keep ignoring the fact that their terms and conditions include that the customer is responsible for bearing the cost of insurance for the return trip.
In fairness to the OP, the 'second' set of Terms and Conditions -- "the only ones that govern [Precision's] repair..." -- are silent on the shipping insurance. The second T&Cs mention a potential, but unspecified, diagnostic fee, which is not mentioned in the first set. The first set specifies a shipping charge of $18.50, but the second set does not.

Regardless, the OP has decided to proceed with the repair, so the issue of return shipping, insurance, and diagnostic fee in this case is now moot.

I think that the absence of a specified diagnostic fee in the T&Cs is a potential issue for anyone engaging with Precision. This thread might serve as a caution to prospective customers.

- Craig

Last edited by c.a.m; 08-27-2020 at 04:20 PM.
08-27-2020, 03:51 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
we had an estimate fee for repairs
I'm curious whether your estimate fee was flat or did it vary with the complexity of the fault? How was the fee communicated to the customer?

Thanks for the additional info. I think we're moving beyond the OP's issue, but I'd be interested to understand the business from another POV.

The only experience I've had with diagnostic estimates is with a previous car -- the service garage phoned me twice to get my approval to continue with their troubleshooting, at an escalating labour charge, of course. They found the sneaky problem after about $150 worth of the technician's time, which was included in the total bill as previously agreed.


- Craig


Last edited by c.a.m; 08-27-2020 at 04:09 PM.
08-27-2020, 07:11 PM - 1 Like   #39
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Consider yourself fortunate, as I cannot get any quotes to even look at an SMC A star 400 F2.8 without sending it to Japan, my cost both ways... Plus a time frame of 3 to 5 moths even before they look at my lens. Granted this is a special Pentax lens that almost no-one can truly repair if needed in the US.The lens still is fully functional and needs no repair but I stay updated on what other Pentax lenses, past or present, might need to be repaired and what obstacles might be encountered. I hesitate to even mention this but here goes, I have worked in the automotive and photographic industries for many years. My recent repairs are with automotive, I repair my own camera equipment...My own recent auto repair experiences are mirror images of what everyone complains about camera repair. Much talk about responsibility on the repair side but no mention of responsibility on the owner side. A recent example... a 2014 Pathfinder the was leaking Freon from the evaporator. Meaning the dash needed to come out. An aftermarket alarm, day glow neon lights, and 3 led light bars had been added but not mentioned when they call for a price quote.. When I was approached about this repair I told the service writer to call the customer and tell them that the quote was a factory labor quote, nothing more as aftermarket items had been installed and I may have to cut wires just to remove the dash to get to the evaporator core, so the quote was just an estimate. 4.5 hours later, quoted as the whole job, the dash was removed. Cutting and re-splicing 4 wires total. Finish job was 6 hours, installing in much faster after than removing.....This is the reality of of any modern repair....Plus if you take your auto in for repair, please clean the interior. No 3 week old McDonalds crap, pens, cigarette boxes, cigar boxes, gum wrappers,, half empty water bottles, children’s toys everywhere and empty Starbucks cups all over the place. It takes the mechanics time just to clean up a vehicle just to try and repair it. I just had to refuse a repair on a newer import truck for a parking brake adjustment. The whole interior of the truck was loaded with freshly laundered clothes, suits and ties on a hanger rack in the back seat area.. The console needed to be removed to adjust the parking brake so the job was not done....you need the back seat area to remove the console.....
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08-28-2020, 12:14 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
I'm curious whether your estimate fee was flat or did it vary with the complexity of the fault? How was the fee communicated to the customer?

Thanks for the additional info. I think we're moving beyond the OP's issue, but I'd be interested to understand the business from another POV.

The only experience I've had with diagnostic estimates is with a previous car -- the service garage phoned me twice to get my approval to continue with their troubleshooting, at an escalating labour charge, of course. They found the sneaky problem after about $150 worth of the technician's time, which was included in the total bill as previously agreed.


- Craig
It was a flat fee. Note that cameras were much simpler in those days. Auto focus was in its infancy when I was selling them. If a camera came in for warranty work, we collected a shipping and insurance levee and sent it off. Sometimes the warranty was voided, in which case an estimate for repair came back. The owner had the choice of having the camera back unrepaired , or having it fixed. The repair depot ate the estimate fee in these situations.
Note in those days, camera companies all had their own repair depots.
We also had the ability to void the warranty if the damage was egregious enough to make it obvious that the warranty was void, or if the equipment was grey market. Manufacturers would only warrant equipment if it came from the same market that the repair was initiated in, though Pentax was an outlier as they had a worldwide warranty.
Canon Canada, for example, would not honour warranty on a camera bought from B&H Photo, as it was grey market. We treated those cases as non warranty right off the hop, as well as obvious and grave impact damage or liquid damage.
In the case of a non warranty repair (product out of warranty on time), we collected a shipping and insurance levee plus an estimate levee when the camera was dropped off.
This was all laid out for the customer when they dropped the equipment off and the work order form had the legalese on the back.
The most egregious case I saw was a Yashica camera that had been water damaged by the owners son deciding to wash the camera in a sink of water after dropping it in mud. They wanted warranty because what he had done wasnít specifically mentioned in the weasel words of voiding the warranty. That one I simply refused to take in for repair.
What we are seeing quite often nowadays is akin to crashing a car into a brick wall and then expecting the repair to be done under warranty. People donít want to take responsibility for their own negligence, and try to push it onto anyone else, including the mason who built the wall they just damaged.
08-28-2020, 05:31 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by stihlmania Quote
Consider yourself fortunate, as I cannot get any quotes to even look at an SMC A star 400 F2.8 without sending it to Japan, my cost both ways... Plus a time frame of 3 to 5 moths even before they look at my lens. Granted this is a special Pentax lens that almost no-one can truly repair if needed in the US.The lens still is fully functional and needs no repair but I stay updated on what other Pentax lenses, past or present, might need to be repaired and what obstacles might be encountered. I hesitate to even mention this but here goes, I have worked in the automotive and photographic industries for many years. My recent repairs are with automotive, I repair my own camera equipment...My own recent auto repair experiences are mirror images of what everyone complains about camera repair. Much talk about responsibility on the repair side but no mention of responsibility on the owner side. A recent example... a 2014 Pathfinder the was leaking Freon from the evaporator. Meaning the dash needed to come out. An aftermarket alarm, day glow neon lights, and 3 led light bars had been added but not mentioned when they call for a price quote.. When I was approached about this repair I told the service writer to call the customer and tell them that the quote was a factory labor quote, nothing more as aftermarket items had been installed and I may have to cut wires just to remove the dash to get to the evaporator core, so the quote was just an estimate. 4.5 hours later, quoted as the whole job, the dash was removed. Cutting and re-splicing 4 wires total. Finish job was 6 hours, installing in much faster after than removing.....This is the reality of of any modern repair....Plus if you take your auto in for repair, please clean the interior. No 3 week old McDonalds crap, pens, cigarette boxes, cigar boxes, gum wrappers,, half empty water bottles, childrenís toys everywhere and empty Starbucks cups all over the place. It takes the mechanics time just to clean up a vehicle just to try and repair it. I just had to refuse a repair on a newer import truck for a parking brake adjustment. The whole interior of the truck was loaded with freshly laundered clothes, suits and ties on a hanger rack in the back seat area.. The console needed to be removed to adjust the parking brake so the job was not done....you need the back seat area to remove the console.....
Ah, the joys of modern car repair! Getting a dash out is never fun. I've only done it twice. Once for a '57 Ford and the other time for a Landrover Discovery. The Ford, of course, was easier - those were the days with simple cars. The Landrover was a new level of hell that I never want to experience again. But yes, I'm trying to imagine trying to do your job on a firm price quote - I would not do it.
08-28-2020, 06:17 AM - 1 Like   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Ah, the joys of modern car repair! Getting a dash out is never fun. I've only done it twice. Once for a '57 Ford and the other time for a Landrover Discovery. The Ford, of course, was easier - those were the days with simple cars. The Landrover was a new level of hell that I never want to experience again. But yes, I'm trying to imagine trying to do your job on a firm price quote - I would not do it.
One of the reasons car repairs are so expensive is because book rates have enough padding in them to ensure that even the most ham fisted mechanic can get the job done in the alloted time.
When the timing belt in my wife's Toyota needed replacing we were given a quote high enough to cause me to research the job. The hours listed in the quote were ridiculous.
I was able to go to a parts store, buy the belt and do the job on my driveway in somewhat more than half the book time, and that was with having to do it twice as I managed to get the cam off by one tooth. Not enough to crash a piston into a valve, so i didn't notice anything when i turned the engine over by hand. I rather imagine a mechanic who had done a few and who could walk to the parts desk rather than drive across town for the belt would have done the job in less time than I needed.
It wasn't that hard.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 08-28-2020 at 09:16 AM. Reason: wrong word
08-28-2020, 06:21 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
In the case of a non warranty repair (product out of warranty on time), we collected a shipping and insurance levee plus an estimate levee when the camera was dropped off.This was all laid out for the customer when they dropped the equipment off and the work order form had the legalese on the back.
Thanks for your post. I can understand how the various situations could arise -- obvious warranty repairs, time-expired repairs, user-induced damage, water ingress, etc. I imagine that some customers might have expected a warranty job when it was obvious to the dealer that it didn't apply.

Perhaps things were simpler then, when the customer could come in personally and discuss with the dealer. The dealer could answer questions and clarify the warranty conditions.

- Craig
08-28-2020, 07:23 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
Thanks for your post. I can understand how the various situations could arise -- obvious warranty repairs, time-expired repairs, user-induced damage, water ingress, etc. I imagine that some customers might have expected a warranty job when it was obvious to the dealer that it didn't apply.

Perhaps things were simpler then, when the customer could come in personally and discuss with the dealer. The dealer could answer questions and clarify the warranty conditions.

- Craig
We were the first filter in warranty repairs. Our job was to pluck the big gobbets out of the waste stream. We also had to know which companies would void warranty for what. Kyocera, for example, would void the warranty if there was so much as a minor scratch on the camera body. Nikon, OTOH, recognized that beauty marks happen, and would generally honour warranty if there was minor visible damage, such as a scratched bottom plate.
One time I had a Minolta Maxxum 7000 come in that had a failed shutter and grindy drive, but no external damage that wasn't from normal wear and tear. It turned out the owner was a photographer for a small city newspaper and had shot four to 6 rolls of 36 a day, every day for nearly two years. Pretty much she had worn the camera out. Minolta voided that one based on the type of usage the camera had received. Their stance was that since the camera had been used professionally, the warranty was void, as it didn't cover pro usage. The Maxxum 9000 warranty did, but not the Maxxum 7000 warranty.
The really annoying ones were the USA gray market warranty voids. Trying explaining to a customer that their foreign warranty wasn't valid in this country was generally never a good time.

Last edited by Sandy Hancock; 08-31-2020 at 01:29 AM. Reason: Getting personal
08-31-2020, 01:38 AM - 2 Likes   #45
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Settle down folks. Emotions can run high in these sort of threads, but let's keep it clean
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